What is the next easy step to get another 40-50rwhp - Page 5

What is the next easy step to get another 40-50rwhp

This is a discussion on What is the next easy step to get another 40-50rwhp within the F150 Ecoboost Performance forums, part of the F150 Ecoboost Garage category; Originally Posted by mwemaxxowner That all sounds a lot like what @ Boostking was telling us about how the programming handles turbo upgrades in his ...

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  1. #41
    Ecoboost Jr Member 02Reaper's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwemaxxowner View Post
    That all sounds a lot like what @Boostking was telling us about how the programming handles turbo upgrades in his oem+ thread. I've been very much so on the fence regarding the merits of bolt on upgrades. I want to know what my intended bolt ons can do *with tuning*, and would like them to behave well on the stock tune if I ever find myself needing to run it.

    Was that posted by Adam at Tune+?

    Baaaaaaaaaaa
    Adam at tunes + was the guy correct. Then Bugasu responded with that quote about the models being off and basically being that the system is torque based, you wont gain a thing. Now when people say you need a tune for this or that to work on these torque based systems, I'm thinking you would gain from the tuning part regardless of the part. Bigger turbos being an exception to this, because you are actually changing a big part of the hardware, so the software will need to be modeled accordingly.

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    Super Moderator mwemaxxowner's Avatar
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    I'm interested in how this applies to the SPD turbo adapters. SPD has published what's supposed to be unbiased Dyno data showing I believe around a 40 whp gain with no tuning.

    While those guys do seem pretty straightforward and to an extent I trust them, I trust folks like BK more. It seems that the data he's presented us says that the truck will not gain much from anything of the sort without tuning. Every time I mention this and post references from this site I get hammered on the 'Book. "So are you saying they're lying??"

    Baaaaaaaaaaa

  3. #43
    Ecoboost Master Envious's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwemaxxowner View Post
    I'm interested in how this applies to the SPD turbo adapters. SPD has published what's supposed to be unbiased Dyno data showing I believe around a 40 whp gain with no tuning.

    While those guys do seem pretty straightforward and to an extent I trust them, I trust folks like BK more. It seems that the data he's presented us says that the truck will not gain much from anything of the sort without tuning. Every time I mention this and post references from this site I get hammered on the 'Book. "So are you saying they're lying??"

    Baaaaaaaaaaa
    Well I do side with @Boostking he has in depth tuning knowledge and has proved it again and again. Basically the ECU knows what it wants and it has a lot of things to control to keep it happy and it does a really good job of it. But I am still interested in knowing about the downpipes and the SPD adapters as well
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  5. #44
    Eco-Beast mass-hole's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Reaper View Post
    I've recently been pondering adding catted downpipes and cutting out the 2.5" restriction from they y to the muffler, but my tuning experience says I will only possibly get a faster spool and nothing else, since these vehicles are torque based and limit based. I got into a discussion on facebook about whether a downpipe would add more power. I say not really, but the general thought is yes. I'm gonna leave a post from a fellow who really knows his stuff and see where this discussion goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tune+, post: 1306001, member: 19118
    Actually the car is not blind to reduced back pressure as EGBP(psi) is part of the factory calculations for load, speed density quadratic tables, OE BPV control strategies. It is all inferred as the car does not actually have a way to measure true exhaust backpressure. It uses multiple readings to get a somewhat accurate EGBP measurement. So when you change the downpipe it alters the parameters being read by the ECU and it will automatically try to compensate for it. If the range of EGBP changes there are multipliers in both directions to make the changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tune+, post: 1306001, member: 19118


    So the loss of torque "feel" on the factory tune; 1. The factory tune uses the throttle blade angle (ETC) to control TIP/Load, when you install a catless or higher flowing downpipe you increase TIP and LOAD so the ECU has to compensate even more to keep everything in check. How it compensates is by reducing ETC Angle to block out boost and lower load. 2. Turbine Speed is lower initially, but overspeed is possible as long as the throttle is 100% open, if the throttle is not 100% open the charge pressure is always going to be forcing the turbo to slow down as the charge it is producing is not moving with intended velocity. With the factory tune, it is more #1 than #2 but both are possible.
    While I agree with this for the most part, it can be circumvented in the tuning. If you request 800 n-m of torque, and the engine needs a load of 2.1 to get there, then its going to do that, right? And if the engine can truly predict that EGBP is lower, then it compensates by running lower boost to achieve the required load since you've now improved the engine's VE. Whether it does that via closing the throttle(increasing pressure drop across the TB) or opening the wastegates is up to the tuner. There is a table in the tune that lets you adjust the pressure drop across the throttle and I am sure they can adjust this to ensure the throttle stays open. I think we see Boostking do this in his GT turbo thread to control low RPM boost spikes with the throttle blade but then opens it wide open during the steady state operation where it is a lot easier for the wastegates to make the boost control adjustments. This is why you wanna do multiple logs for the tuner.

    That said, eventually(and I dont know where it is) a part will become a restriction just like on any vehicle. Eventually the factory DP and cats will start to plug up and exhaust BP will increase on both sides of the turbine, resulting in more effort from the engine. It also means more wastegate is needed to keep that turbine spinning fast enough to force the air in appropriately. If your turbine starts to choke out before the compressors do, then you can drop the pressure behind the turbine with DP's/exhaust and increase the wastegate opening to help. If you can make the correct flow and pressure with more wastegate opening, that is a good thing as it means less EGBP.
    @Envious sent me this link and shows what the DP's do on a Focus ST with upgraded turbo. The remove the cats on the GTX2867 and get a much nice wastegate duty cycle:

    Blog : What wastegate duty cycle and boost curve can tell us about our turbo setups : Stratified Automotive Controls

    Quote Originally Posted by 02Reaper View Post


    Another thing about the aftermarket downpipes I see, is that they all seem to use the same size pipe to connect to the turbos as stock, then expand as they get to the catalytic converter if there is one, so basically isn't that the same thing as the 2.5" bottle neck in the factory resonator. Look at the connection at the turbo flange on this picture below

    Attachment 155294
    I wondered this as well but I think the exhaust gases are probably still expanding at that point. The GTB2056 turbo on my Jeep is a 300HP capable turbo(same size compressor as on the GT turbos) and yet the outlet of the turbine housing is <2" in diameter. It basically matches the turbine exducer of 43mm all the way out to the downpipe. The downpipe after the flange is 2.5".

    Not only that, but I dont see the need for a single turbo capable of ~250 crank HP to have much more than a 2.5" pipe, but if you have a CAT in there, then having the extra diameter probably helps since you now have a larger CAT. If you put a pair of EFR's with far more power on then you would be matching it with a totally different downpipe with different inlet flange.
    Last edited by mass-hole; 02-05-2019 at 09:45 AM.
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  6. #45
    Ecoboost Jr Member 02Reaper's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwemaxxowner View Post
    I'm interested in how this applies to the SPD turbo adapters. SPD has published what's supposed to be unbiased Dyno data showing I believe around a 40 whp gain with no tuning.

    While those guys do seem pretty straightforward and to an extent I trust them, I trust folks like BK more. It seems that the data he's presented us says that the truck will not gain much from anything of the sort without tuning. Every time I mention this and post references from this site I get hammered on the 'Book. "So are you saying they're lying??"

    Baaaaaaaaaaa
    See here's the thing about dynos and no data. They could have very well got those gains from one dyno run right after install, when the ecu hasn't started compensating. Without data from run to run, we can't really say they did or did not help. The truck could have been running more timing during another run, it could have been hitting a limit on the stock run that it didn't on the second run....We just don't know. I would like to see it backed up over several runs of each stock and modified, and also the data to show that conditions were the same between each. Here is a good read about testing from Ford. Of course they want to sell their own tune, but they do have a point about testing conditions and such, which we never see with these claims of extra power from aftermarket stuff.

    https://performanceparts.ford.com/procal/

  7. #46
    Ecoboost Jr Member 02Reaper's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mass-hole View Post
    While I agree with this for the most part, it can be circumvented in the tuning. If you request 800 n-m of torque, and the engine needs a load of 2.1 to get there, then its going to do that, right? And if the engine can truly predict that EGBP is lower, then it compensates by running lower boost to achieve the required load since you've now improved the engine's VE. Whether it does that via closing the throttle(increasing pressure drop across the TB) or opening the wastegates is up to the tuner. There is a table in the tune that lets you adjust the pressure drop across the throttle and I am sure they can adjust this to ensure the throttle stays open. I think we see Boostking do this in his GT turbo thread to control low RPM boost spikes with the throttle blade but then opens it wide open during the steady state operation where it is a lot easier for the wastegates to make the boost control adjustments. This is why you wanna do multiple logs for the tuner.

    That said, eventually(and I dont know where it is) a part will become a restriction just like on any vehicle. Eventually the factory DP and cats will start to plug up and exhaust BP will increase on both sides of the turbine, resulting in more effort from the engine. It also means more wastegate is needed to keep that turbine spinning fast enough to force the air in appropriately. If your turbine starts to choke out before the compressors do, then you can drop the pressure behind the turbine with DP's/exhaust and increase the wastegate opening to help. If you can make the correct flow and pressure with more wastegate opening, that is a good thing as it means less EGBP.
    @Envious sent me this link and shows what the DP's do on a Focus ST with upgraded turbo. The remove the cats on the GTX2867 and get a much nice wastegate duty cycle:

    Blog : What wastegate duty cycle and boost curve can tell us about our turbo setups : Stratified Automotive Controls



    I wondered this as well but I think the exhaust gases are probably still expanding at that point. The GTB2056 turbo on my Jeep is a 300HP capable turbo(same size compressor as on the GT turbos) and yet the outlet of the turbine housing is <2" in diameter. It basically matches the turbine exducer of 43mm all the way out to the downpipe. The downpipe after the flange is 2.5".

    Not only that, but I dont see the need for a single turbo capable of ~250 crank HP to have much more than a 2.5" pipe, but if you have a CAT in there, then having the extra diameter probably helps since you now have a larger CAT. If you put a pair of EFR's with far more power on then you would be matching it with a totally different downpipe with different inlet flange.
    All good points....

  8. #47
    Super Moderator mwemaxxowner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Reaper View Post
    See here's the thing about dynos and no data. They could have very well got those gains from one dyno run right after install, when the ecu hasn't started compensating. Without data from run to run, we can't really say they did or did not help. The truck could have been running more timing during another run, it could have been hitting a limit on the stock run that it didn't on the second run....We just don't know. I would like to see it backed up over several runs of each stock and modified, and also the data to show that conditions were the same between each. Here is a good read about testing from Ford. Of course they want to sell their own tune, but they do have a point about testing conditions and such, which we never see with these claims of extra power from aftermarket stuff.

    https://performanceparts.ford.com/procal/
    I personally kind of think this is what they did. I think they slapped them on and got a few pulls before it had time to do any learning or adjusting.

    Baaaaaaaaaaa

  9. #48
    Ecoboost Jr Member 02Reaper's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwemaxxowner View Post
    I'm interested in how this applies to the SPD turbo adapters. SPD has published what's supposed to be unbiased Dyno data showing I believe around a 40 whp gain with no tuning.

    While those guys do seem pretty straightforward and to an extent I trust them, I trust folks like BK more. It seems that the data he's presented us says that the truck will not gain much from anything of the sort without tuning. Every time I mention this and post references from this site I get hammered on the 'Book. "So are you saying they're lying??"

    Baaaaaaaaaaa
    That must have been from the facebook group BCB if i recall right?

  10. #49
    Super Moderator mwemaxxowner's Avatar
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    I can't remember which group it was, but it was one of the BCB super fans.

    Baaaaaaaaaaa

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwemaxxowner View Post
    I can't remember which group it was, but it was one of the BCB super fans.

    Baaaaaaaaaaa
    I like BCB they are pretty solid dudes but they still run a business. That being said, they are very straight forward with the questions I ask. At first they were a little vague on the info but once they realized I actually understood and was asking genuine questions they definitely gave more info out.
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