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You basically reiterated what i said.

OP has a 2017 model, which i took it upon myself to assume was a 3.5. In that case it has both port and direct injection. So the point about the detergents is completely relevant here.

Oil is only part of the Equation with valve deposits. Most VCT engines simulate EGR effect by retarding intake camshafts to cause reversion of a small amount of post-combusion gases back into the intake during cruising conditions. Because the intake valves are much cooler than the chamber, combustion sediment condenses and glues to the valves and bowls. This is why catch cans aren't super effective (full disclosure, i have a UPR can).
I do have a 2017 3.5. Yes.
 

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Top tier has more than non top tier. Also, 93 octane top tier has more detergent concentration than 87 octane top tier. All gas in your area comes from one or 2 local refineries. The additive package is what sets them apart.
I need to see real links for real data to back this up. You might be going by those gas company ads and signs that claim their 93 contains more whatever.
 
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I need to see real links for real data to back this up. You might be going by those gas company ads and signs that claim their 93 contains more whatever.
You won't, because he's wrong. At least partially. "Top Tier" as a brand defines an additive package that passes certain standards to minimize deposits and prevent valve sticking in certain, internationally recognized tests. The entire test document can be found here:

You'll notice that the word "octane" doesn't even appear in this document.

Do some companies choose to put more in? Who knows, maybe, maybe not. Additives likely aren't cheap, so I can't see why they would if they're already meeting all these tests. Would more additives be better, if you're already meeting these tests? I don't know... at some point, I'm sure you can get too much additive and start causing other problems.

Reality is, Big Oil isn't going to publish details of their add packs because they are trade secrets. Plus they love to use them in marketing so you think that you absolutely must run 93 V-Techron Ultra Supremium gas in your Yugo, lest its valves all simultaneously stick and the whole car catch fire. Sticking with Top Tier, you know that at least the fuel meets a minimum standard.

I personally try to always run Costco/Kirkland fuel when I make a sojourn north to the local Costco (and it's less BOHICA pricing than anywhere else around) and QT/QuikTrip otherwise because it's convenient. We have a Buc'ees as well, but I don't use their gas because they don't certify to Top Tier, so I have no real clue what's in it (or not in it).
 

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I’ve had someone tell me that I have to run premium in my 2017 f150 ecoboost. Has anyone had any engine damage or heard of this. Isn’t 87 fine?
Like all the other posts have said.. No, you don't HAVE to run premium in your Eco. Check your manual however. I assume it says the same thing that it says for my 13 Eco.

3.5L V6 EcoBoost engine
“Regular” unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87 is
recommended. Some stations offer fuels posted as “Regular” with an
octane rating below 87, particularly in high altitude areas. Fuels with
octane levels below 87 are not recommended. Premium fuel will provide
improved performance and is recommended for severe duty usage such
as trailer tow.

That said, I ran 87 all the time until around 2019.. I towed a #5000 TT since it was new and it did just fine. Way better than when I towed it with my 97 F150 with the 5.4 in it.

2019 I get a new #7000 TT. Towed it the first time with good ol' 87 in it (always from Shell or Chevron) and it fell flat on it's face going the same route over the I-90 pass I have always gone over with the #5000..

Fast forward about 4 weeks and I started running premium (92 octane) in it for several tanks before my next trip over the same pass. Night and day difference. It was back to the same performance I was used to with the #5000 TT, but now it was towing #7000.

Yeah, it costs a bit more to run the premium.. I tried it, not just for a tank, but long term and for a serious comparison of performance difference and I'm sold.. Your mileage may vary of course..

But, for me, I run it all the time now and love it! :)

Good luck! Mitch

 
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Top tier has more than non top tier. Also, 93 octane top tier has more detergent concentration than 87 octane top tier. All gas in your area comes from one or 2 local refineries. The additive package is what sets them apart.
That is incorrect. Top Tier has more than the EPA minimum. There is nothing keeping anyone else from using as much as they wish. There is nothing keeping Top Tier subscribers from using more than the Top Tier minimum. Top Tier does not make a gasoline detergent, they only list minimum quantities of EPA approved detergents.

I rarely see a Top Tier sign at a Shell, Texaco, or Chevron but Top Tier lists those as subscribers. The whole point of Top Tier is to tithe the minor brands providing a sign to convince consumers the product is as good as Shell et al, while Shell doesn't really want to be associated with those lesser brands. Many here buy that hook line and sinker.

Top Tier goes to automakers stating, "Would you give us a free recommendation in your owner's manuals for our branding which offers you extra detergents to band-aid the gasoline so you don't have to fix the designs of your engines?" Well, heck yes!

Top Tier does not specify anything different about "premium" vs any other AKI. Traditionally Shell and Texaco/Chevron (that I know) put extra detergents in premium but I don't believe they do anything because Top Tier told them to.

Top Tier's specifications for the base gasoline is exactly the same as the EPA's but for requirement of minimum 7% fuel grade ethanol. EPA goes about it differently with a quota and credits system whereby one must sell 1 unit of fuel grade ethanol as a motor fuel for a permit to sell 9 units of gasoline. This allows sale of E0 by offsetting with sales of E85. High price for E0 is used to subsidize price of E85.
 

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Boy, this certainly got out of hand.

I'd need to see some data that supports the statement that the detergent package changes as the octane rating increases within a given brand. That is certainly the case between brands. Certain standards must be met to be classified as a top-tier fuel. Beyond the minimum standards, the brand can change its packages. Yes, even Costco meets those minimum standards.

There is no question that both the detergent packages and the packages that determine octane ratings change from top-tier fuels to run-of-the-mill fuels. Even the Mom and Pop stations can have top tier gasoline dependent upon how they order their fuel.

It is certainly true that the bulk fuel itself comes from a limited number of refineries. Most often the additive packages are added as the fuel goes into the tanker truck.
Since manufacturers will never share their "Secret sauce" and i am not a chemist, it will be impossible for me to give you a chemical breakdown and comparison that you're looking for. I read this statement somewhere a number of years ago from a reliable source, but in my search to find it i can only find a reference to it on kelley blue book in the last paragraph of this article. https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/should-you-use-premium-gas/
I would keep searching but im only going to be able to provide other general references like this. Believe it if you want, don't if you don't.

I need to see real links for real data to back this up. You might be going by those gas company ads and signs that claim their 93 contains more whatever.
See my above reply to gearhead

You won't, because he's wrong. At least partially. "Top Tier" as a brand defines an additive package that passes certain standards to minimize deposits and prevent valve sticking in certain, internationally recognized tests. The entire test document can be found here:

You'll notice that the word "octane" doesn't even appear in this document.

Do some companies choose to put more in? Who knows, maybe, maybe not. Additives likely aren't cheap, so I can't see why they would if they're already meeting all these tests. Would more additives be better, if you're already meeting these tests? I don't know... at some point, I'm sure you can get too much additive and start causing other problems.

Reality is, Big Oil isn't going to publish details of their add packs because they are trade secrets. Plus they love to use them in marketing so you think that you absolutely must run 93 V-Techron Ultra Supremium gas in your Yugo, lest its valves all simultaneously stick and the whole car catch fire. Sticking with Top Tier, you know that at least the fuel meets a minimum standard.

I personally try to always run Costco/Kirkland fuel when I make a sojourn north to the local Costco (and it's less BOHICA pricing than anywhere else around) and QT/QuikTrip otherwise because it's convenient. We have a Buc'ees as well, but I don't use their gas because they don't certify to Top Tier, so I have no real clue what's in it (or not in it).
The word "minimum" also does not appear in that document either, only maximum allowable limits, which i find strange. i also agree with your other points, so unfortunately im unable to provide any concrete figures of what brand A and brand B have in their 87, 89, or 93 octane by volume. So really all we have to go by are the marketing departments and the few mentions it from various automotive sources.
That is incorrect. Top Tier has more than the EPA minimum. There is nothing keeping anyone else from using as much as they wish. There is nothing keeping Top Tier subscribers from using more than the Top Tier minimum. Top Tier does not make a gasoline detergent, they only list minimum quantities of EPA approved detergents.

I rarely see a Top Tier sign at a Shell, Texaco, or Chevron but Top Tier lists those as subscribers. The whole point of Top Tier is to tithe the minor brands providing a sign to convince consumers the product is as good as Shell et al, while Shell doesn't really want to be associated with those lesser brands. Many here buy that hook line and sinker.

Top Tier goes to automakers stating, "Would you give us a free recommendation in your owner's manuals for our branding which offers you extra detergents to band-aid the gasoline so you don't have to fix the designs of your engines?" Well, heck yes!

Top Tier does not specify anything different about "premium" vs any other AKI. Traditionally Shell and Texaco/Chevron (that I know) put extra detergents in premium but I don't believe they do anything because Top Tier told them to.

Top Tier's specifications for the base gasoline is exactly the same as the EPA's but for requirement of minimum 7% fuel grade ethanol. EPA goes about it differently with a quota and credits system whereby one must sell 1 unit of fuel grade ethanol as a motor fuel for a permit to sell 9 units of gasoline. This allows sale of E0 by offsetting with sales of E85. High price for E0 is used to subsidize price of E85.
You have a lot of faith with the assumption that non top tier gas has equal or higher additive levels than top tier. Top tier isn't a gimmick of numbers here, there are actual tests performed on actual engines with carbon reduction tracked, by weight, that they must pass in order to gain that certification. So what, one non top tier gas station offers equal fuel? There are 20 others behind it that are selling flammable garbage. Additives cost money and when it comes to any bean counter in any corporation's offices, they arent going to throw extra additives in there just out of charity.

You're also assuming the engines are at fault for carbon buildup, when some engines are more prone to building it up in certain areas ( some more detrimental than others). In realty we are lighting imperfect hydrocarbons on fire and expecting a perfect combustion every time with zero residue left behind... You want to see a clean engine? Tear down an engine converted to LP, i think my point should be made clear then. Seriously, you need to see the difference that makes.

The EPA only cares about emissions. They don't care about engine deposits unless they lead to increased emissions. So its an apples to oranges comparison to even bring them into a topic about top tier gas.



Since this thread derailed in such a fantastic fashion, i should bring it back around. OP asked a simple question. I gave a very simplified answer without all the details that he probably doesnt care about anyway. Run 93 octane from a top tier station. I can't fathom how people running 87 octane in an engine that produces greater than 100hp per liter can sleep at night.

"(They) were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should".
 

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"I can't fathom how people running 87 octane in an engine that produces greater than 100hp per liter can sleep at night."
You can't be serious. Ford made these engines and the stock program for 87. Ford recommends higher octane if you need more power. I'm not hauling or towing during winter so it would be stupid for me to pay $1 more per gallon to drive around town, back and forth to work (5 blocks), and drive 20 miles to the GF's. I trust the top tier 87 I buy.
 

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"We have a Buc'ees as well, but I don't use their gas because they don't certify to Top Tier, so I have no real clue what's in it"

Blasphemy!
Buc'ees would never scrimp on ingredients for ANYTHING!

Food Plant Ingredient Natural foods Cuisine
 

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Blasphemy!
Buc'ees would never scrimp on ingredients for ANYTHING!
Sadly, Buc'ees was pretty cool when it was one store in Madisonville. It was a required stop when travelling to/from the Fire Field at CS. Now, it's just another overpriced tourist trap.

I did actually use their fuel one time, when I had the Livewire running but wasn't tuned. I watched the OAR climb from -1 to around +0.2 in a handful of miles. And that was 93. Or maybe half 93 and half water 😂
 

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I filled up the Porsche and the Miata and the Powerboost, all 3 this week, at the Buc'ees I frequent.

Been my main source since before I bought an Ngauge in December 2017 to monitor OAR.

I'm guessing that's evidence that every Buc'ees, or Costco, or Kroger...... located in various locations across this great land, don't get the same fuel from the same source. Logistically impossible.

I don't know how much detergent or additives my Buc'ees 93 has, but I've never experienced anything less than -1 😁

But I definitely have seen OAR drop with 93 before. I've even posted recently about it.
 
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"I can't fathom how people running 87 octane in an engine that produces greater than 100hp per liter can sleep at night."
You can't be serious. Ford made these engines and the stock program for 87. Ford recommends higher octane if you need more power. I'm not hauling or towing during winter so it would be stupid for me to pay $1 more per gallon to drive around town, back and forth to work (5 blocks), and drive 20 miles to the GF's. I trust the top tier 87 I buy.
98% of the time my truck got 87.
Ark. Can you give me a wake up call. In this new retirement life iv’e been sleeping to well and getting up to late.
😴.
 

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98% of the time my truck got 87.
Ark. Can you give me a wake up call. In this new retirement life iv’e been sleeping to well and getting up to late.
😴.
Not retired, but keep falling asleep trying to catch up on here !
 
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Assuming you aren't tuned, your engine will run perfectly fine on 87, and Ford has added several PCM nannies to make sure that happens. There are millions of Ecoboosts on the road that will live their entire lives running on whatever crap 87 fuel can be found at the most convenient station. You will see the PCM continuously pulling timing - especially when things are hot. Ford does recommend the use of 93 when towing heavy.

That said... the engine will benefit (to the tune of almost 40whp) from running 93, as it can advance timing. And, in many people's eyes, any turbocharged application should always get premium, as the engine is being very demanding of the fuel.

Every one of my EBs received 93 from the first tank. I do this because I can, and because the engines simply "feel" happier (less knock, more performance) on 93. Even my wife notices it in her 17 Explorer Sport, and she is decidedly not a gearhead. Now that I'm tuned, I have to run 93 in the truck.
Last night for the first time I filled the truck up with 93 from Shell. I hope its not in my head but the truck feels stronger. It's bone stock and on 87 it runs very well. So now that I have 93 in it I guess its intercooler and tune time! Somebody please talk me out of it until my warranty is up. LOL
I am amazed at the power 213 cubic inches can produce. Forced induction or not.
 
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You shouldn't really be surprised. And I don't think you are imagining it. There's now more than a decade of evidence that these motors produce more power with 93 than they do with 87.

However, the vast majority of the time you are driving will not be accessing that additional potential. Maybe not at all for most folks. So I can see why so many would be reluctant to pay the premium for the premium. :)
 

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Last night for the first time I filled the truck up with 93 from Shell. I hope its not in my head but the truck feels stronger. It's bone stock and on 87 it runs very well. So now that I have 93 in it I guess its intercooler and tune time! Somebody please talk me out of it until my warranty is up. LOL
I am amazed at the power 213 cubic inches can produce. Forced induction or not.
You picked up about 20hp due to more timing advance, enjoy it!
 

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Yup, I know for a fact I get almost 2 mpg better running premium, as you know it's because it allows more advanced timing and that nets more power.
I know I get 2 MPG variance tank to tank from the same pump at the same gas station driving same route over and over again.
 

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You won't, because he's wrong. At least partially. "Top Tier" as a brand defines an additive package that passes certain standards to minimize deposits and prevent valve sticking in certain, internationally recognized tests. The entire test document can be found here:

You'll notice that the word "octane" doesn't even appear in this document.
Precisely. But also note the document does not "... defines an additive package ..." not a single additive package but defines the properties an additive package must deliver. Floating around somewhere Top Tier publishes a document listing most of the EPA approved detergent additives and the quantity Top Tier requires. You have no idea what detergent a Top Tier gasoline contains other than if it is Shell then its almost certainly Shell's detergent. If Texaco/Chevron then its almost certainly Techron.

Do some companies choose to put more in? Who knows, maybe, maybe not. Additives likely aren't cheap, so I can't see why they would if they're already meeting all these tests. Would more additives be better, if you're already meeting these tests? I don't know... at some point, I'm sure you can get too much additive and start causing other problems.
Long before Top Tier thought to cash-in selling elevated detergent branding to lesser brands such as Costco, others such as Shell, Texaco/Chevron, Exxon, etc, have long advertised superior detergent properties of their fuels. This advertising is what leads Top Tier proponents to make up facts such as "Top Tier premium has more detergent." The major oil companies really do put more detergent in premium than unleaded. That comes to mind, Shell gas pumps are so marked.

Reality is, Big Oil isn't going to publish details of their add packs because they are trade secrets. Plus they love to use them in marketing so you think that you absolutely must run 93 V-Techron Ultra Supremium gas in your Yugo, lest its valves all simultaneously stick and the whole car catch fire. Sticking with Top Tier, you know that at least the fuel meets a minimum standard.
No, all fuels meet a minimum standard. The EPA enforces a minimum standard which is expected to be sufficient for the engine to remain in emission spec for the duration of the Federally mandated emission warranty. 8 years/100,000 miles I believe. 10 years/150,000 miles for CARB states.

I personally try to always run Costco/Kirkland fuel when I make a sojourn north to the local Costco (and it's less BOHICA pricing than anywhere else around) and QT/QuikTrip otherwise because it's convenient. We have a Buc'ees as well, but I don't use their gas because they don't certify to Top Tier, so I have no real clue what's in it (or not in it).
I put 80,000 miles on a motorcycle the past 6 years running almost exclusively on Walmart 87 AKI swill from the same station. Still runs like new. I log every fuel purchase and observe miles-divided-by-gallons is hovering between 48-52 since new. Doom! Gloom! Disaster is looming! High compression 140 HP in 1300cc! Manufacturer specifies minimum 86 (yes, 86) AKI. I have no idea what quantity of detergent is used. Is not Top Tier branded but that doesn't mean it doesn't meet or exceed Top Tier specs. Whatever, it works.
 

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I’ve had someone tell me that I have to run premium in my 2017 f150 ecoboost. Has anyone had any engine damage or heard of this. Isn’t 87 fine?
My 2015 3.5 EB has 70,500 mikes, has towed hard for 30,000 of, run hard cross country interstate trips and I always bought the cheapest flags on the pump. Runs real good, no problems. I ran one or two tanks of high octane after I bought and couldn’t tell the difference.
That is my experience.
 

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My 2015 3.5 EB has 70,500 mikes, has towed hard for 30,000 of, run hard cross country interstate trips and I always bought the cheapest flags on the pump. Runs real good, no problems. I ran one or two tanks of high octane after I bought and couldn’t tell the difference.
That is my experience.
Ive said this before. My brother in law sits in a big office in Huston doing what ever he does in the gas industry. Worked from the bottom to now sitting in a fancy office now. Been there a long time.

He does exactly what you do. He has said gas is gas. No matter where you buy it. It comes out the same pipe when the tanker pulls up to get a load. The only thing that makes it different is the additive they mix in it at time of the load.

Personally I have to at least use a name brand station, I just can’t use the old run down mom and pop stations he uses just because it’s 10 cents cheaper.

I to have tried 91 Octane for several tanks and didn’t notice anything different in power or gas mileage.
 

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I'm not brand loyal on my gas near home base but I do buy it from places with lots of business. And I DO notice inferior gasoline according to the ODB Pids, so I avoid fuel that the knock sensors tattle on.

Of course detergent content is unknown.
 
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