F150 Ecoboost Forum banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
2018 F-150 Lariat 4X4 Special Edition
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Like the title says, what's the deal? If the computers are advanced enough to adjust learned octane rating, then why isn't everyone doing that? The only thing I could see keeping a person from using adaptive octane tunes is maybe track only vehicles, but still don't see that very likely. If you're already having knock on an adaptive tune, it should theoretically (unless you tune for 85 octane lol) still be there with octane specific tune. If not even more knock depending on the octane tune. I have read a few thread on here, fb, and another forum (I posted this there as well) where people complain the adaptive octane tunes don't feel as solid. But in all fairness to that, those tunes that are adaptive might not be tuning on the ragged edge (though why not push it with adaptive especially?). Maybe some of the tuners didn't originally have access to the tables a while back, but they all should by now .I’m assuming the shops that don’t do the adaptive tuning either don’t know how to well enough, or too time intensive & not a good return on investment? But there may be something else I’m missing?

Livernois even offers an adaptive octane tune/kit to run E85 and not have to screw around with what E% you have in the tank. Spendy though, but that's because of the HPFP & ancillary parts installed.

I run a 5 Star 91 Performance tune, but usually have 92 octane in the tank from Costco. I would love to have an adaptive tune that would give me the power of a 92-93 octane specific tune, but the ability to adjust if I only put in 90-91 octane.

So what's the dealio?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,811 Posts
A recent quote from a very respected tuner:


Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,701 Posts
In general I think you would find the adaptive tunes are similar in performance assuming you have your LOR pegged at -1.

I think the octane specific tunes can be a lot more prescriptive in the amount of boost/load/timing is added/remove because the expectation is that you are running the correct fuel. I guess what I am saying is, they are probably more consistent due to the lack of variability, which may be why you hear reports of the adaptive tunes being softer. While the peak power potential could be the same, the adaptive tune spends more time not at peak potential.

I have adaptive tunes from BCB and Gearhead and never found them weak in any way, but I normally just run my 5Star 91 Tow tune for daily driving, as I know I will always fill with 91.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SrpRacing

·
Registered
2018 F-150 Lariat 4X4 Special Edition
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
You can be very aggressive with pulling timing per a knock event & the time period to add it back. So I don't see it mattering. Now I don't know if boost can be controlled to lower per knock event or not like timing can. If that's the case that boost is fairly preset, then I can see why adaptive tunes wouldn't give as much boost, thus less power. Which then, an adaptive tune wouldn't be as powerful as an octane specific tune.
 

·
Registered
2018 F-150 Lariat 4X4 Special Edition
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
A recent quote from a very respected tuner:


Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
Seriously, that quote doesn't mean anything. It's not descriptive. Of course his tune would make the same if it was only tuned to X amount of power to begin with. Well, it better anyway lol.

Was there power left on the table because it's an adaptive tune, then if it was a octane specific tune? Not asking about Gearhead's specifically, just a generalized statement/question. I've thought about trying something different than the 5 Star tune I have now. Preferably an adaptive octane tune.

Even more preferably one where I may have a mix of mostly 91 octane and maybe just literally a few gallons of E85 splashed in there. Not enough to run out of fuel pressure obviously. Just enough to bring the octane up a couple points would be nice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
433 Posts
I’d say it more so depends on the tuner.... there are many different ways to obtain an “adaptive” tune.

Also these computers don’t have the ability to learn the obtained octane rating. It’s all based on KR feedback... You could get a good tank of 87 and have a OAR of -.5 but then have a bad tank of 91 which then reads +.2
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,701 Posts
You can be very aggressive with pulling timing per a knock event & the time period to add it back. So I don't see it mattering. Now I don't know if boost can be controlled to lower per knock event or not like timing can. If that's the case that boost is fairly preset, then I can see why adaptive tunes wouldn't give as much boost, thus less power. Which then, an adaptive tune wouldn't be as powerful as an octane specific tune.
There are load limitation in my 2014 tune based on the fuel quality and LOR. I have not played much with the tunes on the newer 2nd gen trucks but I have heard that LOR has an even larger role to play, even stock. Gearhead showed almost a 30 rwhp gain on the stock 2018+ tune just from the change in LOR.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Load97

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,701 Posts
Seriously, that quote doesn't mean anything. It's not descriptive. Of course his tune would make the same if it was only tuned to X amount of power to begin with. Well, it better anyway lol.

Was there power left on the table because it's an adaptive tune, then if it was a octane specific tune? Not asking about Gearhead's specifically, just a generalized statement/question. I've thought about trying something different than the 5 Star tune I have now. Preferably an adaptive octane tune.

Even more preferably one where I may have a mix of mostly 91 octane and maybe just literally a few gallons of E85 splashed in there. Not enough to run out of fuel pressure obviously. Just enough to bring the octane up a couple points would be nice.
I do agree. Changing no parameters in the tune other than just pegging the LOR to -1 means little.

The auto tune vs a tune specifically built to max out power is where the differences are. I would assume this would need to be a tune on the dyno or with a lot of logging and revisions.

Me personally, I don't care. The adaptive tune is fine and I don't care if i make another 10 hp by having perfect timing and no load reduction from the LOR.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,569 Posts
I personally don’t know one person that runs an adaptive tune (from any company) and a dedicated 93 performance or 91 performance tune that says the dedicated tune isn't faster. by how much? Maybe not a whole lot but....
I have an adjustable octane tune and I like it, I use it mainly for towing though.

Also not sure if you know but 5 Star offers adjustable octane tunes as wel.

Best bet is to try one and see for yourself

it’s always good to have a few different companies in your arsenal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,811 Posts
AO tunes are c o n v e n I e n t

And still very much a huge unveiling of untapped potential.

It's an awesome tool to have in your "arsenal", as my good buddy just put it

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: TOWMA8R

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,569 Posts
I personally don’t know one person that runs an adaptive tune (from any company) and a dedicated 93 performance or 91 performance tune that says the dedicated tune isn't faster. by how much? Maybe not a whole lot but....
I have an adjustable octane tune and I like it, I use it mainly for towing though.

Also not sure if you know but 5 Star offers adjustable octane tunes as wel.

Best bet is to try one and see for yourself

it’s always good to have a few different companies in your arsenal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh, and I’ve heard nothing but good things about gearheads adjustable octane tune as well. Sounds like a solid tune. And Matt over there definitely knows what he's doing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,811 Posts
Oh, and I’ve heard nothing but good things about gearheads adjustable octane tune as well. Sounds like a solid tune. And Matt over there definitely knows what he's doing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But he's so weird. Lol

(I mean that with the utmost respect. It's an IT guys compliment)

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
2018 F-150 Lariat 4X4 Special Edition
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
I do agree. Changing no parameters in the tune other than just pegging the LOR to -1 means little.

The auto tune vs a tune specifically built to max out power is where the differences are. I would assume this would need to be a tune on the dyno or with a lot of logging and revisions.

Me personally, I don't care. The adaptive tune is fine and I don't care if i make another 10 hp by having perfect timing and no load reduction from the LOR.
Is it only 10 hp though? Maybe it’s 25-30. I personally don’t think I’d be too worried if only 5-10 WHP. But I’d like to know if that’s it would be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,701 Posts
Is it only 10 hp though? Maybe it’s 25-30. I personally don’t think I’d be too worried if only 5-10 WHP. But I’d like to know if that’s it would be.
It is not for me because of my altitude. I am mostly turbo limited, not timing or tuning limited.

I guess it really depends on how conservative the adaptive tune is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,701 Posts
Is it only 10 hp though? Maybe it’s 25-30. I personally don’t think I’d be too worried if only 5-10 WHP. But I’d like to know if that’s it would be.
Here is what Boostking had to say about it:


"The way this works is by finding a happy-medium with boost and timing, and leaving the factory OAR adjustment in tact. You have to find a boost level that will work with 87 through 93 and stick with it. For example, you cant run 20psi of boost on 87 regardless of the OAR adjustment, unless you make the OAR adjust way more aggressively to pull timing. The problem here is that if you do this, you end up with more aggressive advance as well when your OAR is happy.

To explain. The main OAR table is made up of mostly negative values or zero's. No positives. Lets take one cell in this table for example. -4. This is a common value in the table and is set in most load and rpm areas of the table. You may also see other negatives. Largest negative I usually see is -5.

If your OAR is a positive number, meaning you have crappy gas and the vehicle has learned this, then it will reduce timing from the borderline knock table. Negative number times a positive number will be a negative value. -4 x .5 = -2 degrees. Now if you make that -4 a -6, you would get more retard. -6 x .5 = -3. So -3 is subtracted from your overall spark.

The issue that needs to be overcome on the other side is if your OAR is a good value, like a -.96 (pretty much optimal), then you would be adding. -4 x -.96 = + 3.84. So now make that -4 a -6. -6 x -.96 = +5.76. Timing can get harry quickly if you dont watch and adjust all the adders and such perfectly.

The boost cannot change in this situation because its a single tune. So the only thing changing is the spark advance based on the OAR. I'm not saying the tune is bad or good, I'm just letting you know how this works. It can still be a good tune, however it will never reach the same power levels as a 93 purpose built tune.

Also a purpose built 93 tune should still have the OAR working. Tuners who disable this or reduce its effectiveness are asking for trouble."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Load97

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,569 Posts
But he's so weird. Lol

(I mean that with the utmost respect. It's an IT guys compliment)

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
Lol yep the weird ones tend to be the best, my brother is the same, also IT



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,811 Posts
That'll do it. BK quote above

(I mean, answer the question)

I love that guy. Wish we could clone him so one could live his life, and the other would be at our beck and call. :)

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,193 Posts
I for one recently switched back from my 5* dedicated 91 tune (3-4 revisions) to the latest GH AO Tune.

Honestly, I like matts (GH) tune way better for drive-ability,,,, it is very stock like normal driving but refined for the better, but as you command more, the more aggressive it gets and when you command WOT,it has great pull, really great!. The transmission operation is way better with matts vs 5*. So much smoother and crisper. I think the 5* dedicated 91 might be a tad faster.... but only the track will tell this.... With the 5* tune the Sport mode is more aggressive than Matts AO Performance, but in no way is that better.... (shifting firmness)

When I was conversing back and forth with matt recently, here is one of the quotes from our conversation when I asked him about the E15 mixture:

My Question- The manual says we can run up to E15...... Will your adaptive tunes adjust for the added octane if I stay at the E15 limit?

Reply- "E15 is fine with the auto octane. It will give gains up to about 94 octane"

I for one am very happy with the AO tunes and the ability to live safely through a bad gas experience and/or when traveling not worry about where i need to look for specific gas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,193 Posts
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top