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While you're here being forthcoming with information about tuning instead of keeping all the secrets under wraps, when it comes to your standard bolt ons, intake, downpipes, exhaust, and cac, is there truly anything to be done/updated with the tune?

Assuming one already has a performance tune, of course. I'm not looking for a debate in whether said mods do anything, are cost effective, etc. Just wondering if there is any point in updating a tune for any of those mentioned mods. For example, 5* charges $65 to make a tune update for mods purchased elsewhere. Rightfully so, it takes them time and time is money.

However, is there any point? Is there anything to actually be done with said mods to support them and net even more gains, above what the truck is capable of doing on its own inside the tune parameters with the cooler air, better flow, or what have you that has been introduced?

Baaaaaaaaaaa
Didn't he just tell you that after adding a serious VE change to the entire system (ie bigger turbos that flowed more air) the truck found a way to make exactly what it was programed to make? ;)
 

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Yes he did.

But, for example. Say I add a CAC. Say average temps on a pull are usually 130. Now they are at 100. Completely hypothetical numbers. Perhaps, for all I know, the truck can make x power at 130, and x+15 at 100. Perhaps,for all I know, this is already within the abilities of the tune.

Or not? Is there anything else to be squeezed with any changes?

Same question applies for the other things mentioned.

Baaaaaaaaaaa
 

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Yes he did.

Baaaaaaaaaaa
Correct me if I am wrong but are you asking for typical bolt on mods. Maybe not turbos but a CAI, cat back, intercooler, downpipes, etc.... forget turbos for a sec. I read your question as such. Am I thinking correctly
 

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Discussion Starter #64
While you're here being forthcoming with information about tuning instead of keeping all the secrets under wraps, when it comes to your standard bolt ons, intake, downpipes, exhaust, and cac, is there truly anything to be done/updated with the tune?

Assuming one already has a performance tune, of course. I'm not looking for a debate in whether said mods do anything, are cost effective, etc. Just wondering if there is any point in updating a tune for any of those mentioned mods. For example, 5* charges $65 to make a tune update for mods purchased elsewhere. Rightfully so, it takes them time and time is money.

However, is there any point? Is there anything to actually be done with said mods to support them and net even more gains, above what the truck is capable of doing on its own inside the tune parameters with the cooler air, better flow, or what have you that has been introduced?

Baaaaaaaaaaa
It really depends on the type of modification and the order they came in. For example, let's say someone took a bone stock truck and put only the OEM+ turbo upgrade on. Everything else bone stock. We know the stock tune would handle it, however this guy gets a custom tune for his turbos and of course to make more power. Now he decides to put on a set of downpipes. The same tune will handle that, however the widebands will need adjusted in the tune to ensure accuracy. Also if his tuner knows much about VCT, he can adjust the intake/exhaust cam timing to take more advantage of those downpipes. What is that worth? I dont know. It could help make more peak power, but more than likely will just help spread the power band some.

Some modifications may require changes to VCT, or even spark advance, fueling, etc. Your FMIC example is a decent one. The PCM already has a table that is set up to alter the spark added based on charge temps. Does this need adjusted? Probably not because it's already set to take spark away when charge temps are hot, and to add when they are cool enough, and do nothing when they are average.

Changing exhaust components can also alter the air fuel mixture by some degree.

Your hypothetical is great because you are trying to dig deeper, however there is no answer that will suite every variable that can/could/should/shouldn't be adjusted. I cant say, well 5* is just trying to make money "tweaking your tune". At the same time I cant say they aren't in some cases. Not really for me to be jury of.

Popular Mods and what should be adjusted for the PCM to be happy (not for power):

CAI: Nothing unless it causes CEL like some newer trucks get.
BOV: If mechanical like mine, shutting off the CEL and the E-BOV control is enough.
FMIC: Intercooler volume can play a role in speed density corrections, however it doesnt seem extremely necessary.
Downpipes: O2 delay, Temp Loss, Cat Temp for Closed Loop, O2 Heater Duty Cycle. None of those have anything to do with power, but they will assist with closed/open loop operation and proper calibration of the widebands when done correctly.
Hard Pipes: Nothing
Throttle Body: A whole sh*t tone of work for almost no gain. Lot's to adjust.
 

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CAI: Nothing unless it causes CEL like some newer trucks get.
BOV: If mechanical like mine, shutting off the CEL and the E-BOV control is enough.
FMIC: Intercooler volume can play a role in speed density corrections, however it doesnt seem extremely necessary.
Downpipes: O2 delay, Temp Loss, Cat Temp for Closed Loop, O2 Heater Duty Cycle. None of those have anything to do with power, but they will assist with closed/open loop operation and proper calibration of the widebands when done correctly.
Hard Pipes: Nothing
Throttle Body: A whole sh*t tone of work for almost no gain. Lot's to adjust.
I feel like this thread is really going to further the progress of our trucks. You keep showing again and again why you deserve the name king.
 

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It really depends on the type of modification and the order they came in. For example, let's ...snippage

Awesome, thanks! My question really isn't necessarily about whether a tuner is trying to "dupe" us. I'm just more concerned with whether these sorts of things are necessary to even bother a tuner with (if they aren't charging) and whether it's worth it to us to pay for the changes if they do.

Eventually, I want to have CAC (I have a Wagner awaiting install), downpipes, exhaust, and maybe an intake. Not sure yet. Grim seems to make a good point for all these being worth something collectively. Worth the money, maybe not, but if I own the truck a long time, why not spend a little on it here and there. I want turbos eventually, maybe, if some become available and testing proves them to be a worthwhile upgrade.


Baaaaaaaaaaa
 

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Sorry, my edit function isn't working. Here is the body of the entire message. I was asking about expected power and necessary supporting mods. This is definitely not a knock on MPT. I have tunes from 3 different tuners and I use their 93 perf race as my DD.

I just thought it was relevant to earlier post about whether the mods are worth it. I do have down pipes, cat back, cai, and an intercooler for what it's worth.
 

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As I said, I don't want to muddy up this thread with whether or not mods are worth it. Grim is FBO, and seems to consistently dyno more than most on stock turbos, even on the OEM tune. His results suggest to me that all the mods done together can net you a little more than tuned to the hilt without the mods.

Baaaaaaaaaaa
 

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Lets not argue about exhaust but long story short, that is not right. On our trucks, maybe bc the small ass turbo size, it could be true.

A very easy point to make, the Raptor has dual 3 inch exhaust on the Eco version. SO if you believe manufacturers know it all, Ford musta spent the extra money for some reason.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
If you go back to my original post, you can see the graph of a STOCK TUNE on a my stock truck, vs a STOCK TUNE with all my bolt ons (before OEM+ Turbos). There was some power there, but the PCM regulates it. I would bet to say that downpipes do assist in power production, and FMIC assist in repeatable performance.
 

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I believe your dyno results. Thanks for the great write up. I have never had a turbo vehicle that didn't respond to a larger downpipe. Maybe that tuner just doesn't change the tune much to account for it.
 

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BoostKing, for the benefit of everyone here, would you mind speaking to the importance of allowing the ECU to utilize the Borderline tables to control timing?

This is in regards to mwemaxxowner's question about tune revisions after performing additional modifications. You hinted at it, but I doubt most people realize how valuable it really is.
A
lot of aftermarket tunes are locked in the Cylinder Pressure Limit table during WOT, thus eliminating the ECU’s innate “adaptive” ability to adjust timing advance/retard.

I just went out and confirmed that any curious owner of an SCT tuner can log the DMR “Spark Source” with LiveLink…unfortunately I’ve had WAAAAY too much Woodford Reserve tonight to go out and verify with a log what it should display. What I'm trying to say is...If the the verbiage between products is similar, when @ WOT you should be seeing “Borderline” and not “Cylinder Pressure Limit” to get the most out of your ever evolving EcoBoost.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
BoostKing, for the benefit of everyone here, would you mind speaking to the importance of allowing the ECU to utilize the Borderline tables to control timing?

This is in regards to mwemaxxowner's question about tune revisions after performing additional modifications. You hinted at it, but I doubt most people realize how valuable it really is.
A
lot of aftermarket tunes are locked in the Cylinder Pressure Limit table during WOT, thus eliminating the ECU’s innate “adaptive” ability to adjust timing advance/retard.

I just went out and confirmed that any curious owner of an SCT tuner can log the DMR “Spark Source” with LiveLink…unfortunately I’ve had WAAAAY too much Woodford Reserve tonight to go out and verify with a log what it should display. What I'm trying to say is...If the the verbiage between products is similar, when @ WOT you should be seeing “Borderline” and not “Cylinder Pressure Limit” to get the most out of your ever evolving EcoBoost.
I'll do my best. The first thing I want to explain is that seeing "Cylinder Pressure Limit" is not necessarily a bad thing at WOT. Here is a screen shot of that table from a 17 Raptor (just happened to be working on this)
Max Spark to Limit Combustion Pressure.jpg

Load is the Y-axis, going down to more load. RPM is the X. You'll notice that in this table, from the factory, at 2.0 load, there isn't much room for spark. So let's say for example, your Borderline knock table is asking for 1° and the spark adders are giving another 2°. So we have 3° as the final spark value. If we are at 2.0 load and 5000 rpm, we would be limited to 2.74° of timing because this table acts as a final spark limit (and there are others too). This is where you would see your spark source change.

Here is how I use it. During development I move this table up out of the way, so that it will not "clip" the spark I'm working on. I will work my Borderline tables, following the active ones at WOT using the HDFX logging. Once I have optimized spark to my liking for that calibration, I will go back to this table and set a safe ceiling. This way I will never have a scenario where the adders and other conditions add more spark then I wanted. I know, I know, you could be thinking, if the PCM wants to add it why stop it?

Well for a few reasons. I'm making tunes for various octanes, that must work well with everyone's vehicle. This means different environments, conditions, fuel quality etc. I do my best to optimize and cap the spark to avoid issues across vehicles.

90% of the time you should see a Spark Source of 2, which means it's using the Borderline Spark Tables as intended. If conditions are good, you may get enough spark to run into the Max Spark limit tables and thus your spark source will change. I wouldnt consider this a bad thing. This usually helps ensure a very consistent spark deliver and curve. Here is how it looks on this Raptor I'm tuning. Blue line is the spark, peaking around 6.5 degrees. So smooth though :)

Raptor Spark in Livelink Log.jpg


My end goal is to optimize the Borderline Tables to deliver smooth spark across the blended tables, and then adjust the Max Spark to leave a little room for the knock sensor to add if wanted, or ECT/ACT multipliers to add if wanted, but eventually hit the ceiling to keep things safe.

If it was a track only type tune, I would move this up higher and "just send it".
 

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Please please please see if they'll send you a 60% pump and hit up DW for some injectors, would love to see E85 working to see how it does. :)
Ooh yeah and flex fuel tune :)
 

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Discussion Starter #78
Please please please see if they'll send you a 60% pump and hit up DW for some injectors, would love to see E85 working to see how it does. :)
Ooh yeah and flex fuel tune :)
As much as I would love to do that, there are a few reasons I wont or cant. Can't really discuss all of them though.

My own personal reason is this, I'm not sure how much more power this motor will take. My piggy bank is small right now, since we are building a house. Free parts are great and all, but no one is sending me back up motors lol. As my DD and having limited funds, I really cant push her much more.

I will see how things do when the air cools down, on the same tune and dyno, just to see if she makes any more steam. Then I'll back her down again.
 

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Please please please see if they'll send you a 60% pump and hit up DW for some injectors, would love to see E85 working to see how it does. :)
Ooh yeah and flex fuel tune :)
I have that exact setup being ran on the engine dyno in the next few weeks on E85. Keep ya posted with data
 

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I'm over here ready to build my engine and buy the pump and injectors if I can just see ONE person make it work, otherwise piggyback is my only choice.
 
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