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Discussion Starter #1
FIRST: YES I searched. This forum and several others. There are some that touch on the topic but nobody (that I have located) has made the plunge.

2015 F150 3.5 stock

I have been looking at something and am trying to understand if I am either way off base, or just had a few too many...

So the concept is simple:

Purchase a quality aftermarket set of DP's with high flow cats

OR

Purchase a set of catless DP's and install a high flow single cat and relocate O2 sensors.

In theory this should work, that is unless the ECM reads and measures resistance from the O2 sensors which would be increased with extended wiring. Plausible, as this is the newest vehicle I have ever owned.

The reason this came up is due to a conversation another mechanically inclined individual who owns and operates mandrel bending equipment. We discussed building a set of 3 inch DP's for both of our trucks then talked about the cat aspect as he lives in a county that has emissions and I do not. From my research, tuners won't remove the CEL associated, so to not have an illuminated reminder and avoid the limp mode that follows (a plague in previous vehicles without emissions.) In my previous experience with OBDII vehicles this was an issue that had to be tuned out or fooled using foulers etc.

Thoughts? Am I an idiot? (Don't answer that.)
 

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You can get the O2 tubes that move them away from the gas stream and I believe that usually works.

Also, you would have to run a single 4.5" cat to have the same flow as dual 3" cats. Seems like more hassle than its worth.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
This is why I enjoy forums, the input involving things I had not thought of is priceless. Thank you, Mass-Hole. That makes sense...materials alone for SS for the DP's and me doing the bending and welding is $400, a 4 inch high flow cat is $3-400. I am still in Full Race pricing and would take a lot less time.

Too bad I cannot tune out the issue.

Sigh.
 

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Another issue is converter light-off time. The closer the cat is to the engine, the faster the light off occurs. You may still see cat codes due to the cat taking much longer to begin the reaction process, being shoved several feet downstream in the exhaust in comparison to factory converter location.
 

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Ok I will jump in here while I don’t work on cars anymore I’m a double master certified tech with multiple advanced diagnostic and amissions certifications..the converters have to be a certain distance from the engine because you have to heat up the material in the converter in order for it to work correctly so if you move them the rear oxygen sensor is still going to sense that the converters are not working correctly and throw the light the close they are to the engine the faster & better they work
even more so if you have two converters..as the first one has to be as hot as possible the first converter is there to do away with HC & CO so the the first 02 has to run the engine just a tad bit lean(hot) to fight HC & CO then the second converter is there for NOX emissions where the converter needs to be a tad rich (cooler) as you have to eliminate oxygen to get rid of NOX emissions..so the computer will pick up a code if the converters aren’t hot enough ..moving the second farther away doesn’t matter as much as the front one..
also on higher hp factory cars they come with high flow and removing them makes zero difference on most performance vehicles..from what I’ve seen and read the ecoboost has a very restrictive exhaust..it’s why I spent the extra money and got KOOKS catted DP’s as they have the green high flow cats..which are good to about 550rwhp supposedly..I’ve seen this to be true up to 600rwhp where they start to cause a hp loss on sc And na Applications .. of course turbos are different being they use the exhaust..
anyway if you still stock more or less tune extra just get a good DP with high flow cats and be happy ..
although not all high flow cats are created equal. Good luck
 

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Ok I will jump in here while I don’t work on cars anymore I’m a double master certified tech with multiple advanced diagnostic and amissions certifications..the converters have to be a certain distance from the engine because you have to heat up the material in the converter in order for it to work correctly so if you move them the rear oxygen sensor is still going to sense that the converters are not working correctly and throw the light the close they are to the engine the faster & better they work
even more so if you have two converters..as the first one has to be as hot as possible the first converter is there to do away with HC & CO so the the first 02 has to run the engine just a tad bit lean(hot) to fight HC & CO then the second converter is there for NOX emissions where the converter needs to be a tad rich (cooler) as you have to eliminate oxygen to get rid of NOX emissions..so the computer will pick up a code if the converters aren’t hot enough ..moving the second farther away doesn’t matter as much as the front one..
also on higher hp factory cars they come with high flow and removing them makes zero difference on most performance vehicles..from what I’ve seen and read the ecoboost has a very restrictive exhaust..it’s why I spent the extra money and got KOOKS catted DP’s as they have the green high flow cats..which are good to about 550rwhp supposedly..I’ve seen this to be true up to 600rwhp where they start to cause a hp loss on sc And na Applications .. of course turbos are different being they use the exhaust..
anyway if you still stock more or less tune extra just get a good DP with high flow cats and be happy ..
although not all high flow cats are created equal. Good luck
You can get the O2 tubes that move them away from the gas stream and I believe that usually works.

Also, you would have to run a single 4.5" cat to have the same flow as dual 3" cats. Seems like more hassle than its worth.
I had my '17 3.5 dueled some time back with very good results. the '17 had 2 cats right after the turbos on each side then the pipes came together just in front of the cross member. I had a one into two Flowmaster put on right behind the crossmember as close as possible. Now the muffler acts like the crossover in any good duel exhaust system and the performance is pretty good. get the intake track flowing good and you will be happy with gas mileage and performance.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you for the replies and great information. It makes a lot more sense. I keep looking at my Full Race cart and cringing but after reading exhaustive reviews, it seems to be the way to go.

My entire exhaust system has evidence of leaks throughout the length. So it will be easier to convince the money saving side of my brain to just pull the trigger and replace it all with quality parts since it needs to be replaced anyway.

The only part that has been bothering me is noise. I do not care for a raspy rice burner "typical" V6 sound, rather high flow, efficient and quiet unless under full accelerator load. I realize I will not get a V8 sound and I am good with that. All the videos I have watched regarding exhaust leave something to be desired. A lot of searching and watching/listening, but as usual videos tend to not record audio in "true form."

So replacing DP's and installing a system with a resonator and muffler is the goal (to address the issue above) but I still want it to be able to breathe. Will be replacing the CAC and hot/cold piping as well and I think I will end up replacing the CAI too. All of which will help with "more air in" Which I realize will make more "noise" but still want "more air out" and not sound terrible nor have a massive drone in the cab while under load. Some noise is acceptable and expected. If that makes any sense at all.

I tow with this truck, a lot. Power and efficiency are goals.
 

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Thank you for the replies and great information. It makes a lot more sense. I keep looking at my Full Race cart and cringing but after reading exhaustive reviews, it seems to be the way to go.

My entire exhaust system has evidence of leaks throughout the length. So it will be easier to convince the money saving side of my brain to just pull the trigger and replace it all with quality parts since it needs to be replaced anyway.

The only part that has been bothering me is noise. I do not care for a raspy rice burner "typical" V6 sound, rather high flow, efficient and quiet unless under full accelerator load. I realize I will not get a V8 sound and I am good with that. All the videos I have watched regarding exhaust leave something to be desired. A lot of searching and watching/listening, but as usual videos tend to not record audio in "true form."

So replacing DP's and installing a system with a resonator and muffler is the goal (to address the issue above) but I still want it to be able to breathe. Will be replacing the CAC and hot/cold piping as well and I think I will end up replacing the CAI too. All of which will help with "more air in" Which I realize will make more "noise" but still want "more air out" and not sound terrible nor have a massive drone in the cab while under load. Some noise is acceptable and expected. If that makes any sense at all.

I tow with this truck, a lot. Power and efficiency are goals.
Sounds good but to be honest If a budget is your concern there is little to be gained from the hot and cold side pipes other than spending money for little return on a stock turbo system,from at least from what I’ve seen they don’t add much for what they cost..if your planning at some point to install turbo upgrades they do help then...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It is very true, regarding intercooler/intake piping. I do plan on changing manifolds and turbos down the road, so doing piping will in the end aide in the “end goal.”

From previous experience with boosted motors, the least amount of restriction in the airway inlet and compression side the better.

Budget is always in play, so attacking issues that are higher priority is what will happen.

Therefore DP and exhaust, CAC and piping, will then pursue a tuner.

That way the people behind writing tunes can add the replacement “upgraded” parts to the tune.

Unless I am missing a step?

I always did my own Honda tunes using Uberdata and got my hands on Hondata as well, pretty neat.

I realize it is far different with these EB motors as they are much more intuitive, plus it’s a daily driver so I don’t want to have it down for weeks in end while I attempt to work out the bugs. Especially since there are tuners who have vast experience where I do not.

Anyway, I am long winded. Thank you again for the information.


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Regarding exhaust note, the only exhaust ive ever liked was this custom job i found on YouTube. True duals with an X pipe, and plumbed out the back.

 

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It is very true, regarding intercooler/intake piping. I do plan on changing manifolds and turbos down the road, so doing piping will in the end aide in the “end goal.”

From previous experience with boosted motors, the least amount of restriction in the airway inlet and compression side the better.

Budget is always in play, so attacking issues that are higher priority is what will happen.

Therefore DP and exhaust, CAC and piping, will then pursue a tuner.

That way the people behind writing tunes can add the replacement “upgraded” parts to the tune.

Unless I am missing a step?

I always did my own Honda tunes using Uberdata and got my hands on Hondata as well, pretty neat.

I realize it is far different with these EB motors as they are much more intuitive, plus it’s a daily driver so I don’t want to have it down for weeks in end while I attempt to work out the bugs. Especially since there are tuners who have vast experience where I do not.

Anyway, I am long winded. Thank you again for the information.


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These trucks are actually pretty difficult to tune compared to other platforms. 2017+ are easier with quite a few less tables to touch.


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Not sure if this helps, but I’m running a Full Race exhaust. Everything from turbo to tip. With their Catted DP’s, I honestly think the cats are now a restriction for me at 509whp. I’m going to either cut out the cats or see if I can find a set of catless DPs used to confirm my theory.

Here’s a audio clip.



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This is why I enjoy forums, the input involving things I had not thought of is priceless. Thank you, Mass-Hole. That makes sense...materials alone for SS for the DP's and me doing the bending and welding is $400, a 4 inch high flow cat is $3-400. I am still in Full Race pricing and would take a lot less time.

Too bad I cannot tune out the issue.

Sigh.
If you buy the tuning software and tune it yourself, I think you can. I can turn off my rear O2’s with Advatage III


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Im working on my tune now. The timing part actually seems to be the easiest part. Im trying to get my throttle body to stay wide open through a pull but its only doing it between 3900 and 5000 rpm at the moment, which is better than it was stock.

Haven’t even got to the power side of things other than lifting the altitude limiters. Although my end goal was more an OEM+ tune, not more power.

The thing is, the PCM is pretty flexible, so you can make changes and it doesn’t mean the tune is undrivable. So far, all the tweaks ive made have not had any negative side effects that I can tell, they maybe just didn’t do exactly what i wanted.
 
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For me, it's hard to argue against that Full Race Exhaust as a winner if you are going to alter the oem quietness.

Or put another way, it you ARE going to be heard, that's not a bad V6 note. :)

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Discussion Starter #16
I am not familiar with Advantage software. I have a plethora of OBDII cables so I am sure I wouldn’t need an interface box or would I?

The old days of OBDI programming were based on chip and socket mods. Pulling the chip from the board, soldering in a socket, burning the rom into the chip from your computer then reinstalling and testing it out. It was fun but it was easy to have a no start situation over something simple. I assume these ECM’s are a little more fail safe?

In my earlier years I watched guys damage boards by getting them too hot during soldering and even though it sounds asinine, programming would burn the boards up if one went too drastic. Again, OBDI stuff.

There are so many folks offering tuning for these now it’s difficult to sort out who is viable and who is just using a canned tune. I would like to be able to improve power and mileage but soften shift points as I have never been a fan of a jerking transmission.

Probably going to go ahead and pull the trigger on a DP and car back from FR, in the next few days. Worst case scenario I have to add another resonator or a different muffler that still flows well to keep it from sounding too obnoxious.

Long winded as usual!


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I am not familiar with Advantage software. I have a plethora of OBDII cables so I am sure I wouldn’t need an interface box or would I?

The old days of OBDI programming were based on chip and socket mods. Pulling the chip from the board, soldering in a socket, burning the rom into the chip from your computer then reinstalling and testing it out. It was fun but it was easy to have a no start situation over something simple. I assume these ECM’s are a little more fail safe?

In my earlier years I watched guys damage boards by getting them too hot during soldering and even though it sounds asinine, programming would burn the boards up if one went too drastic. Again, OBDI stuff.

There are so many folks offering tuning for these now it’s difficult to sort out who is viable and who is just using a canned tune. I would like to be able to improve power and mileage but soften shift points as I have never been a fan of a jerking transmission.

Probably going to go ahead and pull the trigger on a DP and car back from FR, in the next few days. Worst case scenario I have to add another resonator or a different muffler that still flows well to keep it from sounding too obnoxious.

Long winded as usual!


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If you wanna do your own tuning, HPTuners MVPI2 is your best bet.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
If you wanna do your own tuning, HPTuners MVPI2 is your best bet.
So the reviews suggest. I do not have experience tuning OBDII vehicles but I am not afraid to jump in head first. I live near Nashville, I need to see if there is anyone in this area with a dyno so things can be true and correct.

Of course I will need to watch some videos and read some books on how to properly and safely tune this thing.

I assume that if I were to purchase tunes from a reputable dealer they can be made to work with the HPT unit?
 

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A daunting task, when I consider it. And I provided for my family for 30 years being a "technology nerd".

When I first saw the database tables and the relational architecture of them for this mighty Ecoboost, I immediately saw how unbelievably inexpensive in both $ and time, to purchase the efforts and expertise of others.

I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from conquering the challenges themselves as long as it is passion behind the drive. But if it's to save a few hundred buck$, I don't see the logic. Lol

100 Horsepower for $100

Insane to a fella that grew up in the carburetor days.

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Discussion Starter #20
Snake I do not disagree. The last few hours I have been reading about tuning this monster and it is night and day from the old days. Carbs were easy! OBDI vehicles were a learning curve but in the end you were limited in what you could do (and still mess up!) These things are exhaustive. Gotta be honest, I watched a "How to tune an EB class" (tuning school) on youtube and was left scratching my head. Impressive amount of items that can be adjusted...dangerous if one is not a "true believer."

I once was that guy who learned the craft and then started doing the deed for others, but I think I will swallow this one as a challenge I simply do not have time to attempt to tackle. Purchasing a wuality device and a tune from one of the recommended folks is looking like a key item in my purchase future.

Now deciding between Unleashed of a 5Star tune...
 
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