F150 Ecoboost Forum banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Like many guys on this board, I run the highest Octane I can buy. And, while I like the power it produces when tuned.... For a large percentage of my driving, I am driving on the highway in cruise. The only time I really need the power, is when I pass someone ... and then I want all the power I can get.

My question is, could a guy then run an 87 tune and use the Methanol to give the Octane Bump needed in WOT (and possibly better than running straight 93+ Octane fuel)? I am thinking that the savings in 87 Octane over 93+ Octane could help pay for a Methanol Kit (The story I need to explain to the wife)!

AND ... when I am really in need of a "Power Fix" ... I could burn 93+ Octane with the Meth Kit ... for extra fun.

Are you aware of anyone doing this? I haven't done the calcs as the amount of Meth I consume will depend on how much I push on the skinny pedal. (And if anyone could tell me how many times you can go WOT while driving & passing basically 50-85+mph (and WOT from standing stop to 85+mph) on a gallon of Methanol.
 
  • Like
Reactions: milesej05

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Nothing to add but eager to see any responses. I'm in the same boat, even went as far as picking up a used kit but haven't gotten around to installing it yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
823 Posts
In my area (Austin, TX) we can get 93 and 87 octane. The price differential is generally 30 cents per gallon and doesn't change all that much, gas prices go up and down, differential is almost always 30 cents. So if you're driving 15k miles a year, getting 15mpg overall average, thats 1000 gallons per year. 30 cents per gallon difference (if you bought 87 vs 93) is $300 in total gas cost savings per year.

you have to add back in the cost of water/meth consumables, which could range from near zero (if you go the super cheap windshield washer fluid route) to maybe $100/year if you buy 50/50 boost juice. boost juice is ~$10/gal and if you're trying to save on gas, 10 gallons of it will almost surely last a year since you're probably not stomping on the pedal all that often either and you're only spraying at 8-10psi and above typically. but if you can save ~$200/year buying 87 vs 93 and still have 93 performance that could work out, 2-3 years pays for the hardware.

a little googling has a bunch of conflicting reports on how much knock resistance W/M injection adds in terms of thinking about it as a octane ratio. 87->93, 6pts might be a lot to hope for, that would be equiv of taking 93->99 in the performance only use-case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,080 Posts
In Canada the difference between 87 and 93-94 is usually 20+ cents per litre (3.8L/gal) Heck even 91 octane is 15+ cents normally over 87 octane. So to run 93 in Canada costs more than double what it costs to run in the US.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grim Reaper

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
In Canada the difference between 87 and 93-94 is usually 20+ cents per litre (3.8L/gal) Heck even 91 octane is 15+ cents normally over 87 octane. So to run 93 in Canada costs more than double what it costs to run in the US.
That is my reason for wanting to consider this. 94 is 22 to 24 cents Litre or nearly 92 cents a US Gallon. On a long trip to the Coast (where I am primarily cruising), on a tank of gas (136L or 36 US Gal), that is almost $33 bucks a tank. Even PURE 100% Methanol is easily bought for $10/US Gallon. If I wanted to cheap out, I could add Washer Fluid, which can be bought for $2.50 a gallon (4 Litres actually).

Using the 1,000 Gallons of fuel per Year at 92¢ per Gallon, that is $920/year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
823 Posts
Torrie have you ever tried pushing a meth on top of a 87 base octane to see if you can push it like a 93 tune without knocking or is it more like 91? or ?

In the 2.0 TFSI (think VW GTI or Audi S3) community there is less "custom" tuning and more uniform 91/93/100 octane tunes from just a couple big shops. guys running the 93 tune + water/meth will sometimes run a 100 race gas tune without issue, but others start seeing unacceptable knock. they don't have fueling issues though, so its all about cooling/knock for them and run 50/50 or even more water than meth. Thats why I was thinking 6 pts of effective octane might be a little wishful thinking, but someone has to be the first to try it - do it Grim!

While $200-300 USD might not be enough to mess with it, at $900!?!? difference in fuel a year i can totally see why canadian guys would consider it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
823 Posts
The questions is how far you think you could take it on top of 87, guesstimate for us, if you're willing :eek:
would run something like a 91 only tune, 93 only tune, better?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I would think at least 93 depending on the methanol percentage.
My thought was to increase the percentage of Methanol to make up for the lower octane. I was thinking 50% pure methanol & 50% Washer Fluid. Washer Fluid is typically 20-30% Methanol so this would give me 2 gallons of 60-65% Methanol.

I also know some guys are running even higher percentages of Methanol, which would be another option.

As for "kits", Torrie, which kit (that you sell) do you feel is best for the EB F150? I see some have "controllers" and curious if those would be better ... or just control everything in the tune? And could the tune accommodate "Meth On & Off" switch (for low meth fuel conditions).

And is it easy to use the larger 2.5 gallon tank in the engine compartment? I don't think I want to run a large 5 gallon tank in my bed.

I am open to all comments from guys who have done this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
823 Posts
If you do the math based on % of meth sprayed (at 113 octane for all meth), the increase in total fuel octane is minimal (less than 2 points) because the meth just doesn't make up a large enough fraction of the fuel.
its like putting 2 gallons of 113 octane race gas in with your 34 gallons of 87 octane, that only gets you to 88.44 octane... 6 gallons meth to 30 gallons 87 octane gets you to 91.xx... you'd need 10 gallons of pure meth to 26 gallons 87 to get to 94.22 octane.

the -effective- octane improvement from spraying water/meth is much higher though due to the cooling of charge air, more uniform combustion, and EGT reductions.
i haven't found anything very technical that can put a formula on it though, more art than science for how far you can push it.

sounds like torrie thinks 6 points worth is doable though... start making the sales pitch to your wife!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
If you do the math based on % of meth sprayed (at 113 octane for all meth), the increase in total fuel octane is minimal (less than 2 points) because the meth just doesn't make up a large enough fraction of the fuel.
its like putting 2 gallons of 113 octane race gas in with your 34 gallons of 87 octane, that only gets you to 88.44 octane... 6 gallons meth to 30 gallons 87 octane gets you to 91.xx... you'd need 10 gallons of pure meth to 26 gallons 87 to get to 94.22 octane.

the -effective- octane improvement from spraying water/meth is much higher though due to the cooling of charge air, more uniform combustion, and EGT reductions.
i haven't found anything very technical that can put a formula on it though, more art than science for how far you can push it.

sounds like torrie thinks 6 points worth is doable though... start making the sales pitch to your wife!
I think the concentration of Methanol via a kit is greater. The actual octane boost from meth is complicated because it would be the % of Methanol delivered to the intake vs the amount of gas injected into the combustion chamber by the stock system. A lot will depend on the volume of the pump in the kit along with the nozzles used. In WOT, the kit's pump and appropriate nozzles may supply fueling equivalent to 25% (or more) Methanol to the engine (vs the gasoline from the Injectors) into the actual combustion chambers in WOT.

Also, there is the secondary effect of the intake cooling by the Methanol on the intake temps (which are supposedly quite dramatic). The cooler intake makes the engine less sensitive to knocking, and effectively like running higher octane. That is why you can run higher effective spark advances in cold winter mornings (and the engine feels peppier) vs hot summer days (and the engine sometimes feels like a dog).

I am sure that if I do get a kit, that Torrie & I will do some experimenting to see the di
 
  • Like
Reactions: stevenmverrill

·
Registered
Joined
·
823 Posts
In WOT, the kit's pump and appropriate nozzles may supply fueling equivalent to 25% (or more) Methanol to the engine (vs the gasoline from the Injectors) into the actual combustion chambers in WOT.
25% 113 octane meth + 75% 87 octane pump = 93.5 octane, so looking good if you spray 100% meth and do the math by volume of fluid (meth+gas) entering engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
25% 113 octane meth + 75% 87 octane pump = 93.5 octane, so looking good if you spray 100% meth and do the math by volume of fluid (meth+gas) entering engine.
My plan is actually to have BOTH an 87 MethTune (to Justify to the Wife) and a 93 Meth Tune (for the devil in me). I'm sure Torrie will start "conservative" and then tweak it up.

After a period of time, I will have a clearer idea of what the actual volume of Meth & Gas that is consumed in a few WOT 1/4 passes and then calculate the ratio. I'm also going to be researching some of the past Meth Threads and chat with a few guys to get an idea of how much Meth they consume.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dnellans

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,026 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
25% 113 octane meth + 75% 87 octane pump = 93.5 octane, so looking good if you spray 100% meth and do the math by volume of fluid (meth+gas) entering engine.
Well, I have ONE part of the equation; how must fuel is consumed in WOT 1/4 mile pass.

I did a couple of tests, and the amount of fuel I consumed was 500mL or about 1 US Pint. (1/2 US Quart).

I've been trying to find someone with a Meth Kit to say how much Methanol they consume in a 1/4 mile pass, and if the amount of fuel consumed was reduced due to the Methanol.

I realize the amount consumed will depend on the type of kit (1 or multi-nozzle and size of nozzle)...but the general "guess-timate" I am hearing is the amount of meth consumed is similar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,603 Posts
I'd say you're spot on. I'm running the number 7 DO nozzle. I was using a bit more than you, but I'm having some siphoning issues. Check valve wasn't working properly causing the meth to constantly drip into the engine at idle. It made for quite a rough idle. Time for a solenoid. Just need to figure out what wire goes where.I'll track the usage for you Grim once I get this sorted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grim Reaper
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top