F150 Ecoboost Forum banner

21 - 40 of 57 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,994 Posts
One thing I did notice is that they have some sort of PRV (Pressure Regulating Valve). I imagine you could probably remove that?
Yeah, I saw that. I figure if you gut it and buy a big enough provent so as to not hurt flow/pressure it should leave the stock functionality.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
When was the last time your air filter was changed? A restricted air filter will increase the vacuum supplied thru the cleanside vent which could be causing your turbo inlet connection to be wet.
I’m running one of the drop-in air raid filters... might ought to grab a paper filter and see if anything improves. I don’t notice any negative performance impact, just a nasty air dam

Little of the Cc stink in the cab from time to time, especially now that it’s heater season


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
Personally from what I’ve been seeing. The turbo inlet on the 11-12s is quite restrictive which could be why I get so much more vacuum in the crankcase compared to 13+.

Here me out but I may know why the 11-12 trucks truly react differently when running the brown valve(stock setup). I think because of how much the turbos spin and how much vacuum is produced, it’s physically sucking the pcv valve closed at times. Almost as if boost was pushing it closed but is not. Disrupting its overall functionality. All because the new valve uses a lighter plunger with a stiffer spring. Think of the intake manifold vacuum and turbo inlet vacuum fighting over control of it.

Sounds crazy I know.

Because I recently (just for the hell of it) put a breather filter on the cleanside, while capping the turbo inlet connection, and that fixed all the issues. Drivability was back to normal and power was there.

But the second I put the stock cleanside line back on, drivability goes down the toilet.

@snydmax So I truly believe the extra oil you see on the inlet connection, is from the vacuum the turbos produce. The can may just not be catching it all.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
I think I’m going to try relocating the turbo inlet connection a bit higher. Possibly at the mid pipe where the two intake tubes collide. I have an old connection there where the brake booster line was original ran. I will enlarge the hole and install a barb fitting.

That would overall lower the vacuum amount but still allow some to aid in relieving pressure.

Or a simple approach would be testing with no air filter. But I truly believe it’s due to the design of the inlet tube and placement of the CCV connection.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
500 Posts
Lots of really neat info. Are there any systems on the market that work well and dont cause these issues? I think i seen the Full Race system being superior, but know body directly called it out.
Thanks
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,920 Posts
I have the UPR can with a separate clean side can. I need to study this thread and see if I need to make any changes!

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,994 Posts
Personally from what I’ve been seeing. The turbo inlet on the 11-12s is quite restrictive which could be why I get so much more vacuum in the crankcase compared to 13+.

Here me out but I may know why the 11-12 trucks truly react differently when running the brown valve(stock setup). I think because of how much the turbos spin and how much vacuum is produced, it’s physically sucking the pcv valve closed at times. Almost as if boost was pushing it closed but is not. Disrupting its overall functionality. All because the new valve uses a lighter plunger with a stiffer spring. Think of the intake manifold vacuum and turbo inlet vacuum fighting over control of it.

Sounds crazy I know.

Because I recently (just for the hell of it) put a breather filter on the cleanside, while capping the turbo inlet connection, and that fixed all the issues. Drivability was back to normal and power was there.

But the second I put the stock cleanside line back on, drivability goes down the toilet.

@snydmax So I truly believe the extra oil you see on the inlet connection, is from the vacuum the turbos produce. The can may just not be catching it all.
But wouldn’t any additional vacuum produced by the smaller compressor only be produced within the inlet of the compressor itself. The inlet tube running from the intake is the same to my knowledge and should have the same pressure drop for the same volumetric flow?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
Lots of really neat info. Are there any systems on the market that work well and dont cause these issues? I think i seen the Full Race system being superior, but know body directly called it out.
Thanks
If you’re focused on all out performance, then Full-Race is the only one I would recommend. That gives you the best crankcase ventilation.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
But wouldn’t any additional vacuum produced by the smaller compressor only be produced within the inlet of the compressor itself. The inlet tube running from the intake is the same to my knowledge and should have the same pressure drop for the same volumetric flow?


See I thought about that. But I noticed making any simple change to the my intake either lowered the vacuum or increased it. Something as simple as a cheap filter that was incredibly restrictive put a crap ton of vacuum thru the CCV connection. Or even putting S&Bs inlet lowered the vacuum. It’s like a trade off. I could also feel it too.

But the issue I’m having is that the pcv valve is being sucked closed unintentionally. I’m trying to find a way to delay the amount of vacuum being put on the crankcase until I’m in boost. I seem to be having the issues when I’m transitioning into boost.

Ideally placing the line a bit higher away from the turbo inlet, should delay/lower the vacuum.

These tiny turbos spool incredibly fast. Especially when the BPV recirculates. That’s what gives them the amazing throttle response. Little to no turbo lag.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,994 Posts
Is it possible the tornado's are in the intake for the PCV operation?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
That is a possibility and I didn’t think about that. They may not be strictly for the PCV but do have an effect on it.

A quick way to figure out if they do effect the pcv operation is by seeing if any 15+ users removed them and threw the P051B code.

That code is thrown when the CCV sensor sees less than desirable vacuum thru the line. Which is why so many people with intakes have that code. A higher flow intake reduces the vacuum the turbo provides on the crankcase.

In theory removing those fins would lower vacuum and possibly throw that code.

The CCV sensor was implemented for emissions and to allow the user a heads up if the trucks ventilation system is not operating properly.

Emissions wise it measures vacuum to ensure that contaminates are being sucked out and recycled thru the engine.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
Idk what it is. On stock setup, My truck just drives incredible with the black pcv. And it falls on its face with the brown. The truck literally shifts differently. I can tell when it’s boosting the line pressure for the trans when more power is detected and vice versa when it’s not.

Funny thing is if I vent both valve cover lines to the turbo inlet (FR Design) the truck feels identical but a bit more smooth. Literally identical to running stock setup with the black pcv.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
For those of you that are popping in let me narrow down the setups for our truck.

Ford did a VERY good job on handling crankcase pressure in this engines. There's no doubt about it. Crankcase pressure should only become an issue when pushing major power. Some companies took the correct route and improved on it. While others copied marketing tactics used on other vehicles.

Do you need a catch can? You don’t NEED a catch can but it doesn’t hurt to have one. But by all means if you feel you need one then buy one. Let me give it to you straight.(Gen 1) A catch can will not solve the carbon buildup issue PERIOD. It will happen no matter what due to it being DI. Stratified has a very well in-depth article on this and I recommend you give it a read. Gen 2 on the other hand do have PI now. Let me clear up some information on this. Ford did not implement PI strictly for carbon buildup. It is solely for making more power efficiently while lowering emissions. A bonus of this is valves will be cleaned. There is so much misinformation out there making people think their trucks going to explode if they don't have a catch can. That's so utterly wrong.

A Catch can is ideally used to combat detonation from excessive blowby. These engines do not have excessive blowby if they are functioning as designed. If you are experiencing excessive blowby then something isn’t happy.

A properly working pcv on these setups should only produce gas vapors and a tab bit of oil. That's it. You should NOT be getting large amounts of oil in your kits.


Single Valve- JLT, Radium, Mishimoto, UPR all carry a single valve setup. A single valve setup is one that simply runs inline with the PCV side. Leaving the Cleanside Vent stock. This is a very street friendly design. Allows the stock pcv valve to function as it should pulling in fresh air thru the crankcase while the manifold is under vacuum. Keeps oil clean and retains the stock functionality allowing the cleanside vent to receive vacuum from the turbo inlet. Which aids with ring seal. Simple and very effective. Wouldn't argue running this setup. Ford Engineers designed it this way. Only difference being you are reducing the amount of vapors consumed. No issue at all with crankcase pressure. Perfect setup for running on the street.

Dual Valve- RX,UPR are the two big companies that came out with this setup. Well RX was the original creator for the product but never patented the technology and other companies copied. This setup was copy-pasted to every forum saying their cars engines had improper crankcase ventilation. Which is a bunch of nonsense. Anyways the idea behind a dual valve is that it will constantly pull fresh air thru the crankcase even in boost. They accomplish this by running a line to the pcv, turbo inlet, and intake manifold with a series of check valves. Then a line is used on the cleanside which is routed to the intake air filter housing. Which sounds like a phenomenal idea, but it ultimately turns the stock closed system into an open setup. Yes you now pull air thru the crankcase under boost but you remove the turbo inlet connection to the valve cover. You do NOT need to pull fresh air thru the crankcase when in boost. There is no need. You are only in boost a moment in time. Now instead of your crankcase experiencing a slight vacuum under boost it is now atmospheric. There's a downside to this as you will actually produce more blowby since the rings are fighting atmospheric pressure to seal. This can actually give off the illusion that your catch can is catching a bunch of crud that would pass thru. This system works for stock like power but ultimately not the best. From my testing the crankcase was atmospheric and at times became positive. Which I blame due to the long lines, routing, and check valves. Not ideal but it works. It's primary focus is keeping the oil clean while under boost.This is not an issue and never was an issue on these engines.

If you have a dual valve currently, and its working for you then that's great. All I'm saying is you're getting less than adequate crankcase venting especially under boost.

PCV Delete- Fullrace is the only company that produces a catch can kit solely for relieving crankcase pressure. This removes the intake manifold connection and vents the pcv side/ cleanside to the turbo inlet. Gutting the pcv. What this allows is any and all crankcase pressure to relieved by the suction of the turbo. This would provide you maximum crankcase ventilation with vacuum to aid ring seal. Removing the intake manifold connection guarantees no boost leaking into the crankcase. That's it. Simple and VERY VERY effective design. One downside with this is that you no longer have fresh air being pulled thru the crankcase but in reality it seemed to not make that big of a difference on the quality of the oil. This setup is what I would personally recommend if your sole purpose was making big power.

Code P051B- This code will almost always get set if you run a catch can. This code is thrown when the CCV sensor sees less than the desirable amount of vacuum provided from the turbo inlet. This is solely used for emissions and to notify the user that there is something wrong with the crankcase ventilation. It measure the vacuum to ensure blowby/contaminates are being sucked out and recycled to be burned for emissions.


I promise you will see a big difference in drivability when your crankcase is evacuating as it should.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
So I thought more on the whole vacuum fighting the pcv valve and I don’t think that’s a possibility anymore. It’s highly unlikely it could have any effect on it.

-DISREGARD-I’m thinking the black pcv did a better job at relieving crankcase pressure when cruising. Tho the brown pcv flows more via vacuum it still has a smaller orifice. So when pressure from the crankcase is acting on it, it struggled to get thru that tiny hole while the black pcv with the bigger orifice would relieve it easier. In essence the black pcv behaved as an open vent when cruising. Ultimately giving the crankcase two vents.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
Went back to more testing and it’s definitely not a crankcase pressure issue. Spent the past hour doing pulls and round trips watching my readings on laptop. Nothing, zilch. Crankcase functioned as it should. I truly think the brown valve just effects the functionality of the BPVs. Boost is lower and it comes on a lot earlier. Not in a good way. It has to be that the BPVs are closing earlier than they should.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,994 Posts
This probably won’t applied to many people but what if you are at high elevation and your truck to spend more time with the manifold pressurized than it does in vacuum. For example this is a screenshot of my truck cruising at 55 mph on a completely flat stretch of road:



So my MAP is 91 kpa while my turbo inlet pressure(the air box sensor) is at 81 kpa. Even on moderate downhills im still in boost. I would guess my truck may spend 80% of its life in boost

If i was at sea level it would be in vacuum, but im not. So would that change how the pcv system should be setup?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grim Reaper

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
Wouldn’t change a thing. The stock setup is set up for crankcase evacuation in and out of boost. PCV just relies solely on manifold vacuum to pull vapors out.

When the manifold goes positive all crankcase venting is then routed to the Cleanside Vent attached to the turbo inlet. Your crankcase would technically be seeing a higher mount of suction from the turbo since the turbos are spinning more to compensate for the altitude. All in all it won’t effect the functionality of it. As boost increases so does the amount of suction put on the crankcase.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,379 Posts
@SrpRacing - Very interesting post (Admins .... how about a sticky)?

Anyway, from your explanation, it almost sounds like a better setup (than dual valve) is TWO single valve catch cans @mwemaxxowner is running.

Then the PCV system is BOTH functioning as designed, while capturing the gases as on both vacuum and boost.

Any chance of testing that, in all the test you are doing.

I do have an RX Dual Valve, and MANY times I have debated about converting to TWO single valve (you can easily close off one of the valves on the dual valve with a plug then just get a second single valve for the Clean side). Best of all, I don't have to run a separator where my oil cap goes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SrpRacing

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
@SrpRacing - Very interesting post (Admins .... how about a sticky)?

Anyway, from your explanation, it almost sounds like a better setup (than dual valve) is TWO single valve catch cans @mwemaxxowner is running.

Then the PCV system is BOTH functioning as designed, while capturing the gases as on both vacuum and boost.

Any chance of testing that, in all the test you are doing.

I do have an RX Dual Valve, and MANY times I have debated about converting to TWO single valve (you can easily close off one of the valves on the dual valve with a plug then just get a second single valve for the Clean side). Best of all, I don't have to run a separator where my oil cap goes.
That would be the ideal setup. You want to keep the stock crankcase ventilation routing at best. That’s how the engine was designed. Fullrace just took another step and focused on only crankcase evacuation.

To put it like this, there’s no need to get fancy on evacuating the crankcase on these engines. You can do more damage then good. If there were issues, why would ford use the same routing with the Raptor and GT? Those are pushing a lot more power than we are STOCK.

I’ve actually tested it many times already and running two single valve cans kept the crankcase happy. Hell I even just ran one on the pcv side. With the updated valve it fixed the amount of blowby being sucked into the cleanside vent.
Yes you still get a small amount but it is MUCH less than before.

The only factor is using a set of cans that don’t disrupt the flow. If they do then you’d see an increase in crankcase pressure which is the opposite of what we want. So far most of the single valve kits do a fantastic job.
 
21 - 40 of 57 Posts
Top