F150 Ecoboost Forum banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Figured it was best to just start a build thread, if you want to know a little about me and where I'm at with my truck please refer to my introduction HERE.

Onto the build. As the title says this was not meant to be a build but due to unfortunate bumps in the road it became a build. The goal is not to be a monster of a truck but a perky over reliable daily. With potential for growth in the future if I got bored. Also the point of this build is to provide some hopefully useful knowledge to the masses. This truck isn't built by some shop and I'm sure as **** not dropping 10s of thousands of dollars. But I do believe a lot of shade tree mechanics can follow along and maybe motivate them that they could go to this extreme.

The deets:
Truck 2014 FX4 Crew Cab 136k miles bought at auction. Interior is excellent exterior pretty great other then a cab corner.
Engine: 3.5 NA Duratec block out of a 2016 I believe 36k miles. purchased entire engine for $400 from salvage yard.
Internals:
Pistons, Diamond
Manley Rods
Using the nice new crank out of the Duratec. has been balanced to match new rods and pistons
New heads and cams
New injectors
CRP engineering DIY Turbo rebuild kit. Performance compressor wheel
CRP engineering Exhaust Manifold
Upgraded Melling oil pump
Tuner: still deciding
Intercooler: still deciding
Upgraded fuel pump.

All mechanical work is being done by me, I had a shop machine the block.

Currently the block is assembled with pistons, rods, and crank. Waiting on thrust bearings and outer main bolts. I disassembled the heads and found one to be trashed beyond repair. Picked up a new head with valves and springs for $400 on fleabay. Planned to reseat the other head by my Neway cutter can't fit with the hood and the combustion chambers too tight. Need to reevaluate if I should just go with a new head for that side as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
This kinda sounds like like a build... it looks a lot like a build... this is definitely a build and I like builds, welcome and i'm keen to see where this build goes as I'm in the same boat as SnakeBitten of its a unique approach :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
With the goal of this "build" being a reliable truck I never want to touch again I started focusing on some of the weak points of this engine. Somethings are easy to address with part swaps like connecting rods but somethings taking a little enginerding. Lets a a look at exhaust manifolds.

Exhaust manifold leak issue - this is a longtime Ford problem that I'm sure some engineer bashes his head on his desk knowing he can fix it but has his hands tied by procurement and annoying business case sheets. Because nothing about it is complicated. Lets just look at the basics, if you're going to bolt any kind of exhaust to a head. 1st you always give each port at least 2 bolts/studs one on top one on the bottom. Crazy I know. However Ford thinks nah we can skip that rule and big shocker you get a leak in the spot that is lacking a second bolt.
Automotive tire Bicycle part Motor vehicle Rim Bumper

2nd mistake they made was not only did they decide we don't need a bolt here but we're also going to put a cantilever arm in this exact spot... [Que slap to forehead] AKA the turbo dangling 4 inches from the head. You know they knew this was a possible problem because they had a support bar on 11-12's But some genius in the cost reduction group looking for that sweet sweet bonus for cost savings saw that low hanging fruit and spent months testing to show it wouldn't cause a problem removing it within the warranty period...what an idiot I digress

So why hasn't this been "fixed" well simple answer, it's not worth the cost. When they weigh out fixing the problem vs. the cost to fix a truck under warranty it's probably way cheaper to just let it ride.

So what can WE do about it, well the correct solution is add another stud however we all don't have the cash or design skills to get a 1 off manifold casted for our everyday work truck. So what's the next best thing...PUT A BIGGER BOLT IN!
Wood Tool Bicycle part Engineering Automotive exterior


Ok ok... Not that big. But this was me using my garbage head to determine if it was safe to bump up to an M10 stud and not find any water jackets. This M12 says yep not a problem. Why an M10 you might ask well the M10x1.25 grade 10 stud allows us to almost double our clamp load without taking out to much material but just enough to put in new threads. Will this fix the problem? Can't guarantee it, but there's a good chance.
Here's the math from my handy dandy torque calculator.
Current M8 Grade 10
Rectangle Font Parallel Screenshot Number

Upgraded M10 Grade 10
Rectangle Font Parallel Number Screenshot

You might ask but why wouldn't Ford just do this in the first place...Well the root of all evils for an engineer...COST. If you look back at all past engines Ford makes they use M8x1.25. The cost for Ford to move to an M10 just for the ecoboost would mean losing out on all that cost saving volume. To break it down here's my hypothetical $0.008 M9 stud that would increase to $0.05 for a M10 stud x16. Which equates to $504,000 in lost profits based on 750,000 units per year. Include the larger M10 nut and you got yourself almost a Million dollhairs. So you can easily see why they go "nope we'll keep our cheap M9 and eat the warranty."

That's today's lessons in corporate economics and why engineers always get the shaft. I'll be installing a M10 in my crap head and increasing the torque to make sure the higher torque doesn't pull the threads on the head. Will update with my results.

***Edit-stock stud is M8 not M9.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,923 Posts
Isn't it easier to just use the new revised manifolds?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Isn't it easier to just use the new revised manifolds?
Maybe, but what's cheaper for the everyday guy. $80 for studs and nuts $15 for tap and bit. Or the new BD manifolds plus install kit? Approximately $600.

My solution provides 608 Kn of clamp force the other design gets you to 229 Kn of clamp force. Ultimate solution would be to upgrade the studs and the manifold. I'd say mine gives more bang for the buck for the average enthusiast. But my clamp load isn't evenly distributed so there's that.

If I didn't have the heads off I'd probably be more likely to just do the manifolds. But it would be tempting to go to the larger stud.
 

·
Premium Member
2022 Powergrid KingRanch in Sparkle White
Joined
·
14,047 Posts
I think DNA Dan was suggesting the new OEM replacement manifolds. They are stainless and have a new bolt pattern. I do not know their cost, but one of our Gen1 members with a built motor just installed them.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,980 Posts
Looks like an awesome build and I look forward to following along.

I’ll throw my 0.02 in about the manifolds. Doesn’t matter if you add a larger bolt, the CRP’s, Original OEMs or even as recently reported the BD manifolds will still yield. The “fix” Ford came up with appears (on paper at least) to be the best solution. With their latest version addressing the large un-bolted gap and changing to Stainless as Snake mentions above, should be the ticket to reliability. The new OEM even flow better than the originals.

I think they learned a lot and there is a reason that the Gen2’s don’t fail. The Gen2 Raptor manifolds are SS as well.

Just some food for thought given several folks here have had CRP’s fail with no fasteners fail. Myself included.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Looks like an awesome build and I look forward to following along.

I’ll throw my 0.02 in about the manifolds. Doesn’t matter if you add a larger bolt, the CRP’s, Original OEMs or even as recently reported the BD manifolds will still yield. The “fix” Ford came up with appears (on paper at least) to be the best solution. With their latest version addressing the large un-bolted gap and changing to Stainless as Snake mentions above, should be the ticket to reliability. The new OEM even flow better than the originals.

I think they learned a lot and there is a reason that the Gen2’s don’t fail. The Gen2 Raptor manifolds are SS as well.

Just some food for thought given several folks here have had CRP’s fail with no fasteners fail. Myself included.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is intriguing, I wasn't aware the manifold itself fails. However I'm not shocked at all. When I did manifold designs for turbo charged off-road vehicles we would never do anything less then SS due to the egts. But this was for an engine running 9800 rpm and cvt powered so it holds high temps for sustained time. Truly the only manifold material rated for these kind of egts is hastelloy. Which is high nickel content, prevents corrosion and has a much higher temp rating.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,980 Posts
You may have already gone down the rabbit hole with the larger bolts, however there is a economical SS stud option that has more then enough clamping force for the application…5.4 SS studs.

These see high egts over sustained periods usually due to towing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
With the 5.4 I think the issue was probably corrosion that was causing the failure. So would make sense to switch to stainless to solve the problem.

When you look at the yield strength of SS it's actually lower then a grade 10. So this would actually have a lower clamp load in our case. However I will be using copper coated cinch nuts, which I've had really good luck with in the past and they don't have the corrosion issues.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,980 Posts
The 3.5's also have corrosion issues, that cause the studs to fail in most cases. This may or may not be a factor for you depending on location.

I totally agree and understand that SS has a lower tensile strength then Grade 10. However, that is only one piece of the puzzle, the clamping force is ultimately dictated by what you torque them to. My point is simply around the fact that adding more clamping force does not fix the issue or address manifolds "sagging" or pulling away from the head and causing a leak. If you go crazy with your torque specs, you also risk pulling the threads right out of the aluminum heads. Higher clamping force may mitigate failure in some scenario's however.

I probably should have been clearer and the overall recommendation on this topic was spread over a couple of posts. Basically, do the OEM SS manifolds and ditch the CRP's, the CRP's will fail if you tow, deal with extended climbs or have partially blocked OEM cats. People have even had failures with just normal truck use. Pair the OEM Mani's with the SS studs so you have fasteners expanding and contracting at the same (or at lease very similar) rate as the manifolds themselves. I am not an engineer, however after years of looking into this particular subject and installing the 4th set of manifolds on my truck just a few weeks ago, I am speaking from experience.

Just a FYI, but my CRP's started to fail under 15k.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I want start by saying don't think I'm disagreeing with you and I appreciate all the commentary. I'm not coming in to say I have all the answers either. The SS manifold would be the ideal option from a material standpoint. I still have concerns with the gaps they are creating with the new bolt pattern. But it's definitely an improvement. For fun I'm going to do a little FEA to see what the clamp forces look like. I'll model up the manifold and mess around with things.

The M10 should definitely be more capable of holding the hanging loads. I also found a really good technical paper that shows when a bolt is put at proof load it then has similar expansions of the dissimilar material. LINK

For the concern on to much torque on the aluminum head, I plan to test it in my junk head to verify it doesn't pull out. At this point I don't have to much concern with going up to 57Nm since it's a stud. If it were a bolt I would have concerns due to the twisting.

One thing I noticed in your post was you add anti-seize to your bolts. I was wondering if you are still torquing to the manufacturing specified torque?

With the CR manifold failure was wondering what exactly fails? Do you get a crack? Does it deform? Or is it just he stud fails?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,341 Posts
The CRP manifolds will warp just like the old OEM manifolds. I tried telling some people but I’m just a guy on a forum. They just buy you more time before it happens. I never liked them nor BD manifolds. Quality is very subpar compared to OEM.

The manifold and turbo change (2013) was simply due to cost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The CRP manifolds will warp just like the old OEM manifolds. I tried telling some people but I’m just a guy on a forum. They just buy you more time before it happens. I never liked them nor BD manifolds. Quality is very subpar compared to OEM.

The manifold and turbo change (2013) was simply due to cost.
It's interesting to hear they warped. Makes me thing the egt's are running a bit high on some vehicles. Some how the ones on my original engine have held up for 136k and this engine was cooked.

On the EGT topic kind of boggles my mind that no one is running a pyro on built tuned engines. It's really critical to keep those temps under control. It's also a great indicator when things are going south. About as important as oil pressure.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,099 Posts
I am sometimes guilty of overthinkin also and need to be reminded to use my God given common sense.
I do respect and admire the considerable reaearch, testing, effort, and DIY.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Boatwaco

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,980 Posts
Post the results of the FEA, as that would be really interesting to see! 40+ Ft-lbs of torque is a lot IMO, but curious to see what you find. I did anti-seize for two reasons, it made life a ton easier re-doing this job in the past and adds a little lube to increase the true torque value, while still following the OEM specs. Also, given the gasket material and loading of the manifold while torqueing, all the fasteners were re-checked for torque several times. I went back in and checked a couple I could get to after some heat cycles and they maintained torque, so I was happy to see that.

If you go to the M10 stud, I'm curious what you use for a nut given the lack of space at the mounting points. with me CRP's, I needed to use my good Snap-On socket, just to get onto the nut.

This is anecdotal, however knowing that Ford bothered to put the effort into re-designing the Gen1 manifolds for a fleet that is 99% out of warranty to begin with and the cost of the manifolds having tripled over the originals, they spent some serious coin on doing what they could to mitigate future failures. There must have been a pretty massive amount of failures discovered for them to make this effort.

EGT's get very high and can be for sustained periods. This platform was touted to be able to "tow" and folks certainly seem to leverage that marketing, lol. You can easily monitor cat temps via a bunch of different tools and that provides pretty good EGT insight. I've seen cat temps hit 1900* on sustained inclines. High heat and the sheer number of heat cycles these part go through are likely the main contributors to failures.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I will most definitely post them up. It will be quick and dirty but should show a poor clamp load between the two bolts.

As for the anti-seize, there's nothing wrong with using it but you need to adjust your torque accordingly. I have a suspicion that you may have over torqued based on the k value of anti-seize and using the calculator I can see that going to the 27Nm standard +/- 1.5Nm puts you really really close to the proof load. at 28.4 Nm you would be at 90% of the proof-load. At that point you're almost better off yielding the bolt to relieve the stress. Otherwise that bolt is put into really high tensile stress.
Rectangle Font Parallel Number Screenshot


I'll be using a crows foot perpendicular to the torque wrench. But I may have to do a bit of custom work on the flange of the nut. Shouldn't be a problem though.
You want to talk about nuts and tight clearances on manifolds, this is my TDI manifold. I had to slide the manifold on as I was tightening the far right upper nut. Also had to do some hammer clearancing.
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Automotive design Automotive exterior Engineering
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top