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I just joined this forum and my purpose here is to give everyone a free education of my personal experiences. I love the internet, I value the internet and I love my Ecoboost btw. Im not here to troll or hate the Ford products.

Before I get started I wanted to first take a moment to talk about your warranty. If you do not follow the owners manual that could void certain parts of your warranty. In particular the motor oil you use MUST be API SN Plus resource conserving or have a greater API rating which encompasses API SN Plus, it must meet the exact Ford spec listed in the manual and it must be of the viscosity listed...in my manual there is 0W30 and 5W30 listed. The oil must be changed within the limits of the oil % meter. All of this information is in your owners manual and if you go against any of this parts of your warranty could be voided.

So let me introduce myself. I am Mike and I own small livery fleet around the NYC area. In March of 2018 we welcomed our first 2018 Lincoln Navigator L and this vehicle has the Ford Raptor engine...2nd generation 450 horsepower Ecoboost. It was a hit with our customers right away. All along we changed the oil at 7000 miles with Valvoline Maxlife Full Synthetic and used the Motorcraft filter. At 85000 miles the vehicle developed a cold start rattle and tick.

The vehicle was taken to the dealership where it took over 1 month and two repair tries to fix. The reason for the delay was backordered parts and the fact only 1 special certified mechanic at the dealership could work on it. When we got the vehicle back after 1 month we were given a laundry list of parts involving the chain and the camphasers. Its our belief the entire body of the vehicle was taken off the frame to access the engine.

The vehicle was delivered back after 1 month but that was not the end. It was still rattling and ticking. It was brought back to the dealership for a 2nd try...2 weeks later the rattle and the tick were gone. However, there is a new sound of the starter hitting the flexplate. Since the dealership takes so long each time with the vehicle it has not been brought back for additional repair just yet.

WARNING: Here comes the controversial oil discussion which might...might...help avoid these issues. However, some of what I am about to discuss could void your warranty as I indicated in the first part of this post. Its up to you to do what you desire to do. I am just here to discuss my personal findings which could be right or could be wrong. If you 1) put in the wrong oil...wrong as in going against the owners manual AND 2) Mr. Dealership finds out parts of your warranty could be voided.

Its important to note the 3.5 liter Ecoboost engine suffers from FUEL DILUTION. Fuel mixes with the oil and ultimately the oil is diluted in viscosity. So lets say your oil started out a 5W30...it might easily turn into a 5W20. The main reason why camphasers fail is wrong viscosity. So its possible this fuel dilution of the oil is causing the camphaser to fail.

I set out to find the most perfect oil scenarios and I have been on such websites as Bob is the oil guy... I was banned from another F150 forum...all in the name of trying to find the best oil strategy. Keep in mind, I have no idea whats causing the camphasers to fail and I am not a scientist or an engineer. Just a guy with the usual non-science educational background.

I found the following information in regards to oil strategies:

- In-Warranty Oil Strategy...you want zero problems warranty wise...keep in mind the viscosity range of 5W30 is from 9.3 to 12.0 [email protected] degrees C...find a top quality full synthetic oil which is on the thicker side of the CST range. Mobil 1 Advanced is 11.0, Quaker State Ultimate Durability is 11.6...just to name a few. Keep the oil changes under 5000 miles and use a Motorcraft filter. Used oil analysis shows this strategy will keep the oil within the 5W30 range. If I was using this strategy I would use Valvoline Full Synthetic Maxlife and change it at 4500 miles.

  • Don't care about warranty or maybe you have a way of the dealership not finding out what oil you using. Go 5W40. Don't use European 5W40s or 0W40s. Use API SN rated HDEOs or oils meant for diesel engines. In that regard I would look at Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck oil or Mobil 1 Delvac ESP which is a higher quality.
  • Don't care about warranty...use a HDEO combo 5W30 such as Shell Rotella T6 5W30 multi-vehicle which resists fuel dilution. There is also Mobil 1 Delvac ESP 5W30.
I will tell you how I came up with these strategies. I googled my heart out and found a lot of "UOAs" or used oil analysis. Those ecoboost owners who changed oil before 5000 did not fall into the 5W20 territory. Now my other strategy of using HDEOS and 5W40 came from the Subaru Turbo forums. A long time ago Subaru owners had the exact same problems we did. So they turned to Shell Rotella T6 5W40 and this eliminated all their problems. I would never use that oil however because it isn't rated for gasoline engines and Shell Technical says it can harm the cats. However, Mobil 1 HDEOs like TDT or Delvac ESP are rated for API SN gasoline engines.

Subaru owners had great success using heavy duty engine oil designed for diesels. They found it resisted fuel dilution which is a great problem within the Ecoboost engine.

It took me a while to write this post and its free to you the community. Disclaimer...I am not a mechanic, engineer or scientist. The information her may or may not be correct. Do your own homework on the issues. I am just here to relate my personal experiences on the matter and to educate and provide information.

I have a bunch of YouTube videos and links to support my post however this website says Im too new to post links. Will try to post links to videos in another thread.
 

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1. You have a 2018 with 85000 miles? wow
2. It is not uncommon to pull the truck cab off for better access to the engine
3. DI is common for fuel dilution and is known.
4. If you're in NYC, I imagine you idle a lot, that contributes to fuel dilution a lot.
5. I will stand by Amsoil. I have tested (on new engine) before the rings and stuff were set, the fuel dilution test maxed out the oil analysis. Amsoil still had great viscosity. I dont know about you valvoline max life, you can only know if it is holding up to the abuse if you do analysis on the oil when changing. Best of luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I am the owner of a small fleet or base of vehicles used for livery/limousine work. The vehicles typically see 70000 miles per year and are operated 7 days per week mostly in stop/go traffic. A lot of things happen to our vehicles which dont happen to others like batteries going dead at 8 months or transmissions going out at 70-90k miles. The 10R80 on the Navigator was replaced at 70000 miles for example. So if you want to hear about severe service and maintenance I think I know a few things.

Keep in mind what I said about oils previously. There are 3 things an oil needs to be as listed in the owners manual for the warranty to be in effect. The dealer never asked us what oil we used or how often on the other hand nor did they ask for documentation, but we did have all the things done to the vehicle in the carfax. Dont know if the dealer looked at that. Amsoil is not API rated whereas Redline has products which are API rated and an oil needs to be API SN Plus rated for warranty purposes.

In regards to Amsoil, Blackstone laboratories had authored a blog article where they posted a graphic showing Amsoil 5W30 to be the best out there in terms of iron wear. However in the same graphic they had Shell Rotella T6 5W40 showing even better iron wear. Amsoil responded by saying that any 5W40 oil is better than any 5W30 oil. Thus in terms of iron wear viscosity matters.

From Blackstone Labs blog post
ehyssy40fpeo4lsfxox6.png


From Amsoils blog response
Screenshot_20190904-130805_Samsung Internet.jpg


Our problem is not iron wear however but fuel dilution. We ran Amsoil Signature Series 5W30 for 4500 miles through the Navigator and this is what came back. Keep in mind this was a test run after the repairs and Blackstones summary was correct in that major work was skewing the numbers.
20190907_062832.jpg



We found in our test run that viscosity for the Amsoil Signature Series 5W30 was driven down to 9.6 CST which is just shy of becoming a 5W20 after 4500 miles in the Navigator. This wasnt acceptable for me.

In a UOA I found on the internet Valvoline Maxlife seemed to perform just as well as Amsoil in terms of fuel dilution. This has 7000+ miles on the sample and its ar 9.4 CST.

full-68627-1996-screenshot_20161025_174940-1.jpg


Thus I dug deeper and found the turbo Subaru forums. Turbo Subaru owners have direct injected turbo engines which they tend to modify and push hard. Their engines suffer from a fuel dilution problem as well. They came up with Shell Rotella T6 5W40 which as noted in the Blackstone graphic is better for iron wear than any 5W30 made. Keep in mind Rotella is a cheap heavy duty engine diesel oil at Walmart. Its not the best made.

In the world of 5W40 HDEO oils I found the following:

- Both Amsoil and Redline have HDEO API oils for gas engines, but they are expensive and Im not sure if you need this level of quality.

- Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W40 $25 per gallon at Walmart, API SN gas engine rated

- Mobil 1 Delvac ESP 5W40...similar to Turbo Diesel Truck but its made of higher quality chemicals. Found it recently on Summit Racing and after all rebates/promo codes came out to $19 per gallon shipped and bought 10 gallons.

In Europe they run 5W40 all the time from the factory, but Euro oils for our purposes wont perform as well as HDEO 5W40 oils.

If you were to do a UOA of the HDEO 5W40 oils after 7000 miles you will find the CST viscosity not pushed under 11. It stays up there and resists fuel dilution.

My personal conclusions are the following:

- In all our vehicles we currently use Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W40 and will be switching to Delvac ESP on the next change. The vehicle engines have taken on a European feel. They are quieter and seem more business like...refined. Whichever you can find cheaper Delvac ESP or Turbo Diesel Truck thats what I would run. As for warranty Im not going to tell the dealer what we use. Last time they didnt ask.

- If you are warranty sensitive then I suggest finding your favorite 5W30 or 0W30 which meets the 3 requirements in the owners manual and changing out every 4000 miles.

- Amsoil and Redline are great well engineered oils however we have a specific situation of fuel dilution and camphaser failure. It requires a specific oil. Both Amsoil and Redline are very expensive and cant be found at Walmart. Im not certain if they will yield any greater benefit than the Mobil 1 HDEOs. Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W40 will yield better iron wear rates than any 5W30 made, it will solve fuel dilution issue and it will refine your engine...but if the dealer finds out they will void the warranty mind you...

- I dont want to get into a debate of this oil versus that oil. Lets save that for another thread. My small fleet will be using 5W40 Mobil 1 TDT or Delvac from now on. Thats our decision however and yours might be different.

- On a side note...you know why police cars have large oil coolers? Its because its harder for them to lie to the dealer. They have to use the oil forced upon them by the owners manual otherwise Ford wont honor the warranty. The cops would be better off using 5W40. Thus they put these large oil coolers on the cop cars to keep the oil but they dont need to do that. All they need is Mobil 1 TDT.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Here is the parts list from the dealer paperwork whch cured the cold start rattle btw. Out of warranty...out of pocket...would cost $3500+. Its a big job and huge parts backorder likely. Took my truck 30+ days and all the issues still not solved.

Let me put it this way. This was very painful and I wouldnt wish it upon my greatest foe.

20190907_055245.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
On a side note I was in an MKT just now which has the 3.7 liter Duratec V6. The oil was just changed with Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W40. Drives great! Before it had the suggested 5W20 and there was all kinds of noise. I think they call it lifter noise. It didnt sound like a Lincoln or a 300 horsepower engine with 19000 miles on it.

Now its all business. Noise is gone and it feels like a Mercedes...and those Mercedes use 5W40!

I will update this thread when the engines get more miles on them. I will be sending oil samples to Blackstone.

BTW...get this oil valve for your truck. You can grab oil samples with a quick turn of the valve. Its called the Fumoto valve.
1AE1E1C0-D764-414C-AC8C-B0AF29956E1F.thumb.jpeg.a94b756b80fef228e2f61875159e83df.jpeg.jpg
 

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Good reading. Personally I been through several oils, have had the rattle for over 9 months. Settling on Castrol Magnatec 5w-30 gets me by for a couple days of cold soak without a rattle. If i'm worried, I hold the gas to the floor and let it crank for 5 sec, to prime the oil up into those areas. It's a known "band aid" round here.

I have heard of a few guys on the forums using Shell Rotella diesel blend and the like. I just haven't had the sack to put that weight oil in my truck. Especially with a frigid WI winter coming, and having to start the truck with that.

Again, good info. Welcome to the forums!
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
The choice of oils I talk about is NOT to stop the rattle, but to prevent it in the first place. Once you got the rattle it means the camphasers went bad and the timing chain is stretching to the maximum possible point. My theory...and mind you...its a theory and not fact...is a lack of viscosity is causing the camphasers to go bad.

Now lets say you leave it alone then its possible the chain could break. If the chain breaks that would destroy the engine.

So Ive thrown up my hands and given up on any usual oil scheme believing that any 5W30 will probably get into 5W20 unless you change at 4000 miles. I turned to 5W40.

For the cold winters of Wisconsin I would suggest 0W40. Castrol and Valvoline have a better formula than Mobil 1 Euro oil variations. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 is simply not that thick and not that good at handling fuel dilution. Find the thickest 0W40 measured by cst at 100 degrees Celsius. The thickness allows for more dilution. So the 5W30 oils simply dont have enough thickness. The only 5W30 which might be good for fuel diluters are HDEO type like Shell Rotella T6 5W30 Multivehicle or Mobil Delvac 5W30.

The very bad news is oil will not help you now. You need to get the truck fixed or else the engine might go. It might be worth it to replace the entire engine. The repairs are $3500+ so if a new engine is just a few thousand more than might as well get an engine.

You MIGHT be able to get the repairs done under the emissions warranty which is 80000 miles/8 years if your truck is out of warranty. I heard guys getting the repairs done that way on the internet.

I will update the forum regularly with Blackstone reports on the use of current HDEO oils in the engines.
 

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Oh I know once the rattle happens, it's gotta be done. Just trying to push it out to a more convenient time in life. On the side of oils, I'd personally never use Mobil again in my truck. Especially in the winter time. That's some of the faster oil to get fuel dilution that i've tried. The Castrol I been using had no fuel odor even in the winter time during that cold snap. I had alot more idle time which usually caused the saturation process to speed out of control.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I found this UOA on the internet for a 3.5 liter Duratec V6 Explorer. That engine is used for the Ecoboost version.

I wouldnt use T6 Rotella 5W40 myself because its not API SN. However I would use other HDEOs that are.

Rotella Explorer_zpsrxf6sfxy.jpg


Here is a link which says yes you can use diesel oil in a gas engine. You should only have fear of the warranty being void but otherwise have no fear.

Amsoil states you can use diesel oil in a gas engine

So in conclusion use only API rated SN oils and you have no fear.

If viscosity is a concern and you really want to use 5W30 try Shell Rotella T6 5W30 Multivehicle or Mobil 1 Delvac ESP 5W30.
 

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The choice of oils I talk about is NOT to stop the rattle, but to prevent it in the first place. Once you got the rattle it means the camphasers went bad and the timing chain is stretching to the maximum possible point. My theory...and mind you...its a theory and not fact...is a lack of viscosity is causing the camphasers to go bad.

Now lets say you leave it alone then its possible the chain could break. If the chain breaks that would destroy the engine.

So Ive thrown up my hands and given up on any usual oil scheme believing that any 5W30 will probably get into 5W20 unless you change at 4000 miles. I turned to 5W40.

For the cold winters of Wisconsin I would suggest 0W40. Castrol and Valvoline have a better formula than Mobil 1 Euro oil variations. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 is simply not that thick and not that good at handling fuel dilution. Find the thickest 0W40 measured by cst at 100 degrees Celsius. The thickness allows for more dilution. So the 5W30 oils simply dont have enough thickness. The only 5W30 which might be good for fuel diluters are HDEO type like Shell Rotella T6 5W30 Multivehicle or Mobil Delvac 5W30.

The very bad news is oil will not help you now. You need to get the truck fixed or else the engine might go. It might be worth it to replace the entire engine. The repairs are $3500+ so if a new engine is just a few thousand more than might as well get an engine.

You MIGHT be able to get the repairs done under the emissions warranty which is 80000 miles/8 years if your truck is out of warranty. I heard guys getting the repairs done that way on the internet.

I will update the forum regularly with Blackstone reports on the use of current HDEO oils in the engines.
Not a single person has had it done under emmisions warranty as these parts are not emmisions affiliated. Been through this argument multiple times.

Ford hasn't been able to figure out how to make a variable timing system that works properly. They failed with the 5.4s. They failed with the first Gen EB. The second Gen EB has the same problems, and there are many reports of 5.0s with timing failures as well.

There are tons of guys who've changed the oil every 4-5k miles and still have gotten the phaser rattle.

There are plenty of guys that have driven 60+K miles after getting the rattle and never had a timing failure or P0016 etc which shows timing being out.

If Ford engineers who get paid hundreds of thousands of $ per year to figure this **** out still haven't figured it out after making this engine for 8 years I doubt your theory holds much weight.

This is costing ford a ton of $ in warranty work and repairs if it was as easy as speccing a heavier weight oil I'm sure it would have been done by now.

I personally have ran Penzoil platinum or ultra platinum since I bought the truck at 30k km. Installed a dual valve catch can right away which solves the fuel dilution problem. Always changed at 5k miles (8k kms). Still had the rattle at 72,000 k km. Got fixed under warranty and hasn't rattled since.

I was told by mechanic who fixed its more to do with oil pressure loss on start up and partially blocked filter screens leading to the phasers themselves.
 

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Thorough, I'll say that!

Although I'm not nearly as passionate about the deep science in oil, I AM a disciple of oil change intervals that at least eliminate the various theories of viscosity breakdown and fuel diluted oil sumps.

I might disagree with the claim that once you hear the cold start clack, the damage is done and it's only a matter of time. Speaking specifically of the Gen2, I believe it's possible that a totally healthy truck, mechanically speaking, can sit longer than it normally does, enough that the oil that is SUPPOSED to be in the phasers has leaked down, to the extent that at the cold start you experience the "clack" momentarily. Yet normal sit-intervals do not result in the clack.

Or put another way, as irritating as it may be, (and it is) I'm convinced that the driver CAN compensate for the undesired dry phaser, and theoretically extend the service life of the components.

It could all be wishful thinking on my part. Regardless, my Gen2 will get tons of fresh oil and the cold-start-priming routine if it is cold.

By the way, I'm not AFRAID of 40w. It's actually tempting. But I'm not convinced it would make a difference with the cold start clack

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It could all be wishful thinking on my part. Regardless, my Gen2 will get tons of fresh oil and the cold-start-priming routine if it is cold.

By the way, I'm not AFRAID of 40w. It's actually tempting. But I'm not convinced it would make a difference with the cold start clack

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Amen to the cold start priming routine, and my thing with going to thick is that it may not work for some people in some climates. Just as oil may get thinner with heat, likewise with thicker with cold.
 

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Amen to the cold start priming routine, and my thing with going to thick is that it may not work for some people in some climates. Just as oil may get thinner with heat, likewise with thicker with cold.
I should have pointed out that I'm in the tropics! You're right. I wouldn't consider it if I lived in Wisconsin. :)

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Lincoln guy, all your statements all already known. In fact I just made a thread a few days ago and said with my 5 years maintenance I have proven a reliable setup and oil is most important item.

You said:

"We found in our test run that viscosity for the Amsoil Signature Series 5W30 was driven down to 9.6 CST which is just shy of becoming a 5W20 after 4500 miles in the Navigator. This wasnt acceptable for me."

That is not true. 5-30 SS starts at 10.3 viscosity, 5-20 SS starts at 8.8 viscosity. Your 9.6 example is very well for used oil. Lesser well made oil would be severely down graded from that. Your fuel percentage was 0.5% on that exam too, that is doing great. As i said, my first oil change from OEM break in, my oil tested OVER 5% (they don't test higher) in 2500 mi, which at the time i was doing very short trips as i lived very close to my office at the time. The next oil change was 3900 miles, test at 5% dilution. SInce then it has gone down to less that 1%.

Your TBN shows fine too.

So, the Amsoil held out very well. Yes it is not officially API, however How would they know what brand oil is in the engine? They don't. If they test it, the test will show if oil is good or not. IN fact a 5-40 oil might show viscosity is too high which would hurt your case even more. That being said, I don;t know if a dealer even tests oil, the most they go is proof of purchase of oil. If you're that worried you can simply show them a receipt of your Valvoline.

What oil filter are you using?



Onto the 10r80. What service did you do on this? if it broke down at 70,000 miles, i would assume it was never serviced. You need to do a pan fluid change every 30k (add adrain plug) and filter change every 60K. Being in NYC, you will see a lot more wear and tear on the trans due to constant shifting in bumper-to-bumper traffic. There are two remedies you can implement for your limo drivers:
1. keep it stock, but have your drivers shift to manual 2 or 3 gear in traffic each time they stop. This will keep the trans in that gear upon take off, instead of shifting through the gears constantly. It will cause significantly less wear.
2. Add a aftermarket tune that allows for firmer shifts. This might not be the best for "upscale clients" but it allows for less wear getting into gear quicker.
 

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It should also be known the gen2 ecoboost, which you have, has two timing chains vs 1 single in the gen 1. That has not fixed the issue. Infact, much more people are posting on this forum with the rattle in gen 2 than gen 1.

The most imporant issue is oil viscosity as you said and oil filter, which insures oil gets to the vct/phaser and oil tensioner (which works on oil pressure) etc quickly.

At the end of the day, it might be a design flaw that is just bound to happen.

The best thing you can do, is continue to sample your oil to make sure it is holding up well. My post above, the oil you showed, is holding very well.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Here is something to think about which is the Motorcraft oil filter made by Purolator. There have been problems at the plant. While I believe the chance of the filter causing it is remote or even not at all I must throw this thread out there for all to read. After reading this I stopped using the Motorcraft filter and switched to Royal Purple. The Mobil 1, Redline and Royal Purple filter is made by Champ Labs and well reguarded.

Problems at the Purolator Plant

After reading this I shyed away from the Motorcraft filter. Again chances of thr filter causing it are remote, but I would rather use a different filter.
 

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Another thing I must point out is the design change on early production Gen 2 Ecoboosts. I noticed they used a composite oil pan with a plastic twist off by hand plug. In the newer variations a traditional ratchet on oil plug bolt is used. So Ford is making changes on the engines and its anyones guess if this...the rattle... has been fixed in the 2019 production.
 

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Here is something to think about which is the Motorcraft oil filter made by Purolator. There have been problems at the plant. While I believe the chance of the filter causing it is remote or even not at all I must throw this thread out there for all to read. After reading this I stopped using the Motorcraft filter and switched to Royal Purple. The Mobil 1, Redline and Royal Purple filter is made by Champ Labs and well reguarded.

Problems at the Purolator Plant

After reading this I shyed away from the Motorcraft filter. Again chances of thr filter causing it are remote, but I would rather use a different filter.
I think the pressure loss even with the good filters is because the ant drain back valve in the filter doesn't work when the filter sits horizontally like the 3.5s...
 

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I think the pressure loss even with the good filters is because the ant drain back valve in the filter doesn't work when the filter sits horizontally like the 3.5s...
If that is the case, then why is my filter full when I change it and oil pouring all over the top of the skid plate going out of multiple holes?
 
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