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Discussion Starter #101
The issue here is not necessarily the OAR. It's the elevated spikes in KR.

Truck drives fine with a less than desirable OAR. It does not while the knock sensors are pegging the max.

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Yes that is correct, the poor OAR is just a result of these random knock sensor spikes which we cannot find the root cause of..
 

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Discussion Starter #103
Like Woo said, I see you have aftermarket downpipes. Could those possibly be causing the KR? Did it do this with the stock downpipe?
Unfortunately I never really tracked OAR or KR with the stock ones on, came from a diesel and had lots to learn! It could definitely be related but if so then what is the fix? seems like everyone with downpipes and an exhaust should have this issue then no?
 

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Discussion Starter #105
Just turn down knock sensitivity
Thats likely what were going to do, specially seeing as it didnt even react any differently to e30...
 

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Discussion Starter #107
I was just kidding.

I have seen stock tune trucks see 5 or 6 degrees of knock consistently. So take it with a grain of salt.
If your OAR was basically locked in at +0.50 no matter what you did im sure youd give it a shot too haha
 

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OAR is just an effect due to KR.

The KR spike is what's most noticeable. OAR does make a difference but not anywhere near as noticeable as a 6+ KR spike.

KR will spike in a split second under throttle but takes significantly loger to fall back down. You can let off the throttle if you don't want to wait but then OAR readjusts.

Someone needs to be the guinne pig and replace their knock sensors to see if that fixes the issue. Its the only thing I haven't tried yet. They very could even be loose causing false readings but they are super crappy to get to...
 

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  1. Going back to full stock had no impact on my KR activity.
 

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Here are some really good articles that stratified tuning has written up on Ford ecoboost knock and OAR.



I realize it's not directly related to our 3.5's but I wonder how much detail our tuners can see in regards to our knock sensors? Can they see individual cylinder knock? That would be hugely beneficial in trouble shooting.
 
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Here are some really good articles that stratified tuning has written up on Ford ecoboost knock and OAR.



I realize it's not directly related to our 3.5's but I wonder how much detail our tuners can see in regards to our knock sensors? Can they see individual cylinder knock? That would be hugely beneficial in trouble shooting.
Yup, your tuner can change your tune to individual Knock, it’s just one setting. Obviously, you would have to add the correct PIDs to your config file. I have noticed better performance with my truck on individual vs. Global.


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When i played around with my tune i just changed how much load i needed to affect the OAR. The KR and OAR still responded in the same way but I made it so that OAR only changed when load was >=0.8. This made mine a lot less volatile but there did not appear to be any negative consequences as the KR still functioned normally.
 

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When i played around with my tune i just changed how much load i needed to affect the OAR. The KR and OAR still responded in the same way but I made it so that OAR only changed when load was >=0.8. This made mine a lot less volatile but there did not appear to be any negative consequences as the KR still functioned normally.
I think in @looqw situation, he was still seeing the knock under a higher load then .8. I offered up this solution as one found to work for others, but it didn't really seem like it would be a resolution for him.
 

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Discussion Starter #114
@Blown F-150 is correct, I saw the high KR on part throttle all the way to 1.2 on occasion so the under .8 being turned down or off unfortunately would not make the difference in my situation.
The most success we have had is when @Boostking turned the tune over to individual knock and atleast the one problem cylinder does not bring down the rest of them, as stated previously in the thread cylinder 3 is the culprit and is almost permanently showing bad KR numbers (negative on individual knock config). I don’t seem to be the first with one cylinder being the cause but once again no one has ever seemed to find a real resolution aside from tuning around it which we likely will have too.
 

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Here are some really good articles that stratified tuning has written up on Ford ecoboost knock and OAR.



I realize it's not directly related to our 3.5's but I wonder how much detail our tuners can see in regards to our knock sensors? Can they see individual cylinder knock? That would be hugely beneficial in trouble shooting.
Yes. My truck reads and displays knock per cylinder, and apparently each truck can be programmed to do it either way. I've had tunes that set my truck to do it either way.

Edit...I see that was covered now. Lol

It's not always this way, but I oftentimes have cylinder 6 pegging the knock sensor when the rest are fine. Sometimes it's not that one though.

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Discussion Starter #116
Alright, so in this never ending battle I have repeatedly been able to replicate something with how the knock reacts.

Doing some 0-60 logs I noticed the longer I stay in the throttle the less KR value I get. Starts out with 2-3 knock and works it’s way to 0.
This is true also when getting knock at part throttle if I stay on the throttle long enough it will go from removing timing to adding it, If I let off and re apply the gas it will do the same thing over and over.
These graphs show vehicle speed, boost and Knock. Two of them are logged on individual knock so negative KR is “bad” and the other is setup on global knock so positive KR is “bad”

167089

167090
167091
 

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Are you sure it’s not excessive blowby? I don’t recall if you listed a catch can or not.

Because as soon as you remove any throttle input the crankcase will be venting. So any oil or fuel vapors are released thru the PCV. Then of course when you reapply throttle, the pcv closes leaving whatever amount that made it into the combustion to mess with the mixture for that subtle moment.

If it were fuel related you would see constant KR.
 

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Discussion Starter #118 (Edited)
Are you sure it’s not excessive blowby? I don’t recall if you listed a catch can or not.

Because as soon as you remove any throttle input the crankcase will be venting. So any oil or fuel vapors are released thru the PCV. Then of course when you reapply throttle, the pcv closes leaving whatever amount that made it into the combustion to mess with the mixture for that subtle moment.

If it were fuel related you would see constant KR.
It was doing this before and after I installed a catch can with no change unfortunately. These graphs being 0-60 were around 5-6 seconds so it is taking some time to improve.
Also when it does it at half throttle it took me climbing a steep hill for about 30 seconds+ with constant part throttle for knock to make it back to zero. Same result just took longer at part throttle. By the end of the hill it was actually adding timing!
 

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@looqw is your reason for upgrading your HPFP is because you want to run a higher Ethanol mixture, in an effort to control knock?

That is one of the reasons, I am swapping my pumps. I find E20 definitely helps control knock MUCH better than our crappy pump gas (I also use premium without any ethanol to make the calc easier). As I mentioned in another post, with my existing pumps, the most I can run (without running lean due to insufficient fuel) is currently E20. And now that I had a taste for the power difference, I now want to run higher Ethanol mixtures.

Ultimately, I will be replacing BOTH pumps given my intended modifications. But @Blown F-150 and I want to see "which is the right move, if a person only wants to run E85"? I know for my Turbo swap, I will need both to provide adequate fueling.

Personally, if swapping the HPFP alone would do the trick, it is a LOT less hassle that modifying the LPFP. Especially with the borders closed, and having to have all the parts shipped to Canada. If I had just done the HPFP, I would have been ready in March.
 

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Discussion Starter #120
@looqw is your reason for upgrading your HPFP is because you want to run a higher Ethanol mixture, in an effort to control knock?

That is one of the reasons, I am swapping my pumps. I find E20 definitely helps control knock MUCH better than our crappy pump gas (I also use premium without any ethanol to make the calc easier). As I mentioned in another post, with my existing pumps, the most I can run (without running lean due to insufficient fuel) is currently E20. And now that I had a taste for the power difference, I now want to run higher Ethanol mixtures.

Ultimately, I will be replacing BOTH pumps given my intended modifications. But @Blown F-150 and I want to see "which is the right move, if a person only wants to run E85"? I know for my Turbo swap, I will need both to provide adequate fueling.

Personally, if swapping the HPFP alone would do the trick, it is a LOT less hassle that modifying the LPFP. Especially with the borders closed, and having to have all the parts shipped to Canada. If I had just done the HPFP, I would have been ready in March.
To be honest, I wasnt planning to even do it until @Blown F-150 threw out the idea of upgrading from the xdi35 so it was an opportunity I could no pass up.

Unfortunately that is not the case for me. just as in the past fuel quality has not made any difference in how this "knock" reacts. Even running e30 it reacted the exact same way at part throttle. Not even a slight improvement, if I logged both and show you, there would be no way to tell what is E30 and what is 94.. which still leads me to believe my issue is not to do with fuel quality like most.

IF Brett tells me its safe after trying e30 and maybe eventually e50. I would love to see if I can go full e85 with stock in tank pump that would be great. stock turbos of course. but we will see how it goes!
 
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