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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So you got Full Race GT turbos /Cavallis/ EFRs and are have **** luck getting tuned

So you got Full Race GT turbos /Cavallis/ EFRs and are have **** luck getting tuned:mad:

Email tunes got you down?

60+ logged 1/4 style runs, 60+ 100+mph runs, 60+ Revisions to your tune and all its doing is making 420-430 rwhp?

Well I've got a the product for you!


JK.

So really what can you do? You have tons of money wrapped up in your vehicle, failure is not an option...

The Ecoboost with big turbos is tuneable. The reason no one is doing it is becasue its not worth the time investment for monitary reward plan and simple.

Lets start by saying the first thing you need to be is realistic with your goal, is this a race truck? or your work vehicle? what are you trying to do?

As of 8/30/17 the email tunes are **** because the current group of tuners are not tuning the
Torque to load / load to torque tables on a dyno.

In simple terms these Torque to load / load to torque tables control how fast your turbos spool, how much boost and when, throttle response and throttle control, total power and total power @ what every throttle position and rpm you are at, with out mapping these tables, all you are doing is lying to the ecm about what is can do and the result is the engine fighting back to keep you where it has been told it should be by the stock tables...

This is the one and only reason that the current tuning for big turbos isn't going well.

Its not because they don't know how to control fuel or spark or boost for the most part they can do these with some level of accuracy.

So what can be done?

First you need to be realistic, if you live on the east coast of the USA you have "some" tuners that can do a
proper Dyno tune for you, so GO TO THEM, MAKE THEM DYNO TUNE IT, DONT LET THEM TELL YOU "WE CAN DO THIS THROUGH EMAIL" DON'T LET THEM TELL YOU "DYNO TUNING IS NOT WORTH YOUR TIME"

So lets say you don't live on the east coast what can you do then?


Option #1 (cheapest and quickest): Its not uncommon for people in your position to ship your vehicle to the tuner anywhere in the world or ship the tuner to where you are.

Be realistic is could easily cost you $1000 a day plus their expenses, lodging, flight, rental car, dyno rental. If these numbers scares you, you need to stick with stock turbos.


Hurray you have the worlds most awesome Ecoboost and everyone wants to be your friend!

Option #2 (less cheap and takes longer): Find a Coyote mustang tuner in your area that has a lot of experience with ford 5.0 tuning, force induction experience is key. (this person will have tons of experience with the Torque to load / load to Torque tables )

What? You say all the professional mustang tuners refuse to tune Ecoboost because they don't understand how to remove the pesky limiters that the BIG 3 figured out?

The tuning school to the rescue! For ($500) you can buy access to the Ecoboost training material and give it to your Mustang tuner (now the tuner learns to talk Ecoboost)

PURCHASE ONLINE COURSE: Ecoboost Level 1 ? The Tuning School

With this information they too will know the secrets of the EcoBoost gods, removing all limits on your way to tire shredding power!

Add that to the fact they already understand how to map the
Torque to load / load to Torque tables and you have your Tune!

Hurray you have the worlds most awesome Ecoboost and everyone wants to be your friend!

Cost - $500 plus paying the tuner for their tuning time(easily $600-$800)? Too much $$$ for your taste? then you should stick with stock turbos.

Option #3 (
most costly): Learn to tune it yourself.

For this you will need, the tuning hardware ($650) HP Tuners Ford VCM Suite, MPVI Pro ? The Tuning School

The Ecoboost course ($500) PURCHASE ONLINE COURSE: Ecoboost Level 1 ? The Tuning School

+
The Ford Level 1 course ($500) Ford Gas Tuning using HP Tuners Software Level 1 (Beginner/Intermediate) Learn-at-Home Course ? The Tuning School

(you need the Ford Level 1 course in addition to the Ecoboost course because it teaches you how to tune the Torque to load / load to Torque tables)

What you will find with option #3 is the time investment will be the highest cost and you will find yourself investing costless hours to get your self up to speed and then you have to rent a dyno for many many 2-4 hr sessions.

If you have tuning knowledge from an other platform then the learning curve will be less but still costly.

So you spend a ton of your personal time learning something you will never use again, and it gets done.


Hurray you have the worlds most awesome Ecoboost and everyone wants to be your friend!

If this amount of money and time investment scare you, then you need to stick with stock turbos.

I personal think if you have a local tuner that knows coyote mustang forced induction tuning and you can get them up to speed by: you buying them the tuning school Ecoboost course, this might be the best long term plan (invest in them and they will invest in you).

Or take it you vehicle all over the country and be realistic that it might take them days/weeks to get you a tune and a bunch of money.

Being on the Cutting edge of a platform hurts, and don't think your sacrifice of money or time will make you some sort of Ecoboost legend, it won't.

If you have questions about today's lesson - please post them below.

 
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Great thread. I think I might have to get myself a set of turbos, get them dialed in correctly and start selling tunes. It really shouldn't be THAT HARD for the mainstream tuners to get this stuff right. And yes, after they figure it out on one set up, it should transfer to most others with similar mods with little effort for remote tuning. Anyone wanna donate some GT turbos?
 

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I was under the impression that MPT has tuned many gt and cavelli turbo trucks. Are you saying they don't adjust these tables?


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Discussion Starter #4
What an offer

i should have listed that as option# 4 : send turbos to boostking (in all seriousness I didn't think that would be an option or I would have listed it)
 
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I was under the impression that MPT has tuned many gt and cavelli turbo trucks. Are you saying they don't adjust these tables?


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If they did we wouldn't be talking about this.

The only guys that have had any luck with these turbos upgrades and mpt tuning have been on his dyno in front of him
and some of them have had mixed results at best.

Mainly because he isn't taking the time to remap all of those tables with the real values the dyno spits out.

Hell some of the biggest names in the country remove a bunch of those mapped points and make the vehicles only run off a couple (boostking knows this)
 

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I was under the impression that MPT has tuned many gt and cavelli turbo trucks. Are you saying they don't adjust these tables?


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I don't think he's necessarily saying they don't for GT's and Cavalli turbos, but whether or not they do it for the something like EFR's.


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I don't know the tuning side as much as you do I guess but I thought there were plenty of "happy" customers. I thought they were purposefully detuning them to hit mid 400's hp on a stock block.


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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I don't know the tuning side as much as you do I guess but I thought there were plenty of "happy" customers. I thought they were purposefully detuning them to hit mid 400's hp on a stock block.


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Start naming all the happy customers?

I didn't ask them to raise their hands because, if they speak out they might get fired, then where would they be? (Mpt might be the only option for some)

I made this thread because I'm not afraid to be fired.

If you take your truck to them and get on there dyno and make him map the things I'm telling to have mapped and your vehicle produces the numbers you think it should and drives wonderfully then you are set.

If yours makes 370-420rwhp after tuning with them, then you are making what you could with stock turbos and it wasn't worth the effort.

And I would be pissed if those were my numbers, Just saying.
 
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if you take your truck to them and get on there dyno and make him map the things I'm telling to have mapped and your vehicle produces the numbers you think it should then you are set.

if yours makes 370-420rwhp after tuning with them then you are making what you could with stock turbos and it wasn't worth the effort.

And I would be pissed if those were my numbers, Just saying.
Okay. Well I still have my gt's collecting dust on the shelf. A friend of mine that I work with tunes on the side. He uses hptuners. I will have to ask him about this. He has tuned a few ecoboosts but nothing with upgraded turbos. He has said similar things as you are saying about the importance of tuning on a dyno then fine tuning on the street for drivability. I didn't have him tune my truck initially because he is mainly a GM guy and at the time had never done an ecoboost. But if you hadn't made the thread I wouldn't have had any idea there was an issue with some tunes. Thanks!


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if yours makes 370-420rwhp after tuning with them then you are making what you could with stock turbos and it wasn't worth the effort.
TX, is the 370-420RWHP with GT Turbos only ... or GT Turbos with ALL the bolt-ons?

370-420RWHP is pretty much what I've seen most (not all) guys making with bolt-ons only when they show their dyno results. No meth, stock turbos ... and depending on the dyno, 370 with Mustang Dyno to 420 with Dynojet and a bunch in the middle).
 

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I'm not trying to crap on any tuners out there. Chances are they have more experience with complex issue than I do. But I dont know exactly how they tune. I'm solid with Coyote and EcoBoost. EcoBoost can be a real pain in the rump. It's tiresome to remember all the little different ways they control things on EcoBoost as a whole (I tune on the whole line of EcoBoost for the most part, not just trucks). When it comes to our trucks, I havent pushed anything past stock turbos but I'm going to soon enough.

Point is, knowing and understanding the control system in these is complex. Complete "CUSTOM" calibration of a vehicle of this system with changes such as these can take days. Depending on how you do it, you might have as many as 15 torque tables (16 is normal but 1 is usually turned off), and those torque tables if I remember correctly are usually 12x12. You have to recalculate torque and torque inverse, at all loads and rpms, through VCT settings that dont work on some torque tables when you want to accelerate. On top of the spark and speed density tables (16 again). All in all its a tedious process to get right. And after all that, those torque tables help dictate how much the throttle opens, boost calculations, and torque delivery.

I do this almost every day, with stock vehicles mostly (except my truck). I'm not an expert. I keep learning every day.

I've heard about "keep it safe at 450 to keep the block safe". I really dont know the answer here. We see stock trucks having engine problems too at times. @rbrown can chime in on this as he probably knows way more. To me its a combination of things and a little luck. Our engines are not built like ****, they are actually decently beefy stock, but there are always limits. Some trucks find the limit sooner than others. Then you buy a block from Rbrown and the rest is history. Oh wait you still gotta tune it...
 

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I'm not trying to crap on any tuners out there. Chances are they have more experience with complex issue than I do. But I dont know exactly how they tune. I'm solid with Coyote and EcoBoost. EcoBoost can be a real pain in the rump. It's tiresome to remember all the little different ways they control things on EcoBoost as a whole (I tune on the whole line of EcoBoost for the most part, not just trucks). When it comes to our trucks, I havent pushed anything past stock turbos but I'm going to soon enough. Point is, knowing and understanding the control system in these is complex. Complete "CUSTOM" calibration of a vehicle of this system with changes such as these can take days. Depending on how you do it, you might have as many as 15 torque tables (16 is normal but 1 is usually turned off), and those torque tables if I remember correctly are usually 12x12. You have to recalculate torque and torque inverse, at all loads and rpms, through VCT settings that dont work on some torque tables when you want to accelerate. On top of the spark and speed density tables (16 again). All in all its a tedious process to get right. And after all that, those torque tables help dictate how much the throttle opens, boost calculations, and torque delivery.

I do this almost every day, with stock vehicles mostly (except my truck). I'm not an expert. I keep learning every day.

I've heard about "keep it safe at 450 to keep the block safe". I really dont know the answer here. We see stock trucks having engine problems too at times. @rbrown can chime in on this as he probably knows way more. To me its a combination of things and a little luck. Our engines are built like ****, they are actually decently beefy stock, but their are always limits. Some trucks find their limit sooner than others. Then you buy a block from Rbrown and the rest is history. Oh wait you still gotta tune it...
The "keep it safe 450" in my professional opinion is really no safer than 475. If your willing to run 450, you may as well live a little and throw down 475. Remember we are talking wheel horse power here so we are significantly pushing well beyond what stock HP is at the wheels.

Just want to remind some of the people who forget this, not anyone who's commented.

For some reason people look at the 365 HP the factory throws out is to the wheels.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
TX, is the 370-420RWHP with GT Turbos only ... or GT Turbos with ALL the bolt-ons?

370-420RWHP is pretty much what I've seen most (not all) guys making with bolt-ons only when they show their dyno results. No meth, stock turbos ... and depending on the dyno, 370 with Mustang Dyno to 420 with Dynojet and a bunch in the middle).
Gts only or gts with bolt ons.

I have seen no gains from going gts only to gts with dp and catback ect.

The limiting factor if you think about it is the engine.

So if you do full bolt ons and gts or gts only, your max dyno Hp will not change.

If you do gts (no matter what boltons or lack of boltons )and are getting numbers that low you need to revisit your tune...
 
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im all for learning to tune my own engine. I think it would be fun.
 

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im all for learning to tune my own engine. I think it would be fun.
I'll PM you Ryan's number. He builds one hell of a replacement... just sayin. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
The "keep it safe 450" in my professional opinion is really no safer than 475. If your willing to run 450, you may as well live a little and throw down 475. Remember we are talking wheel horse power here so we are significantly pushing well beyond what stock HP is at the wheels.

Just want to remind some of the people who forget this, not anyone who's commented.

For some reason people look at the 365 HP the factory throws out is to the wheels.


This motor is extremely stout, and the architecture is outstanding. Built and it's potential is great.
Once you get into this range its just a matter of time and luck.

Is that 100,000 miles? maybe, is that 4,000 miles who knows.

Stock motors go, tuned motors go.

Be real if you upgrade the turbos or even tune at all you run a risk.
 
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once you get into this range its just a matter of time and luck.

is that 100,000 miles? maybe, is that 4,000 miles who knows.

Stock motors go, tuned motors go.

Be real if you upgrade the turbos or even tune at all you run a risk.
110% agree with you.

And seriously think about doing a simple short block before the motor pops. Because after it does, it's an entirely new ballgame cost wise.
 

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I'm happy with the tuning I've got from Torrie. But, dyno tuning is the next logical step. Then some track runs to adjust other things that need road time.
For some, like myself, a built bottom end is a must for the goals we have for next season. 11's will only be the start. I'd imagine videos of our truck taking down an unsuspecting hellcat or gtr will definitely be fun to watch.:)
 

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Great thread. I think I might have to get myself a set of turbos, get them dialed in correctly and start selling tunes. It really shouldn't be THAT HARD for the mainstream tuners to get this stuff right. And yes, after they figure it out on one set up, it should transfer to most others with similar mods with little effort for remote tuning. Anyone wanna donate some GT turbos?
Sure as long as you install & get them tuned on my truck..I'm 91k (mostly new truck,suspension,stereo,& bolt on's..)into it already,and still feel slow as a pig compared to my last truck,a 05 srt10 blowned 850Hp 1500ram.... it doesn't matter what you do it's just plan freaking expensive to go above the base level.
.
my next step is either trade in on 2017,(start over)find wrecked raptor install drive train,or just turn the truck into a street/strip corner eater,& realized >14's are just well slower..
 
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