[TX-Ripper]

Glenn,

Tom's truck is done, he is driving it and enjoying it. We have been chipping away at the current configuration on the shop truck and I'm almost at the conclusion that the heads are just too much to overcome above this level. What do I mean:

New HPFP is on the shop truck. New dyno shows 565lb/ft of RWTQ, still near 470rwhp SAE. No additional improvement in power. We had to go to medium wastegate springs to help with bleedoff (read: backpressure). Mike at MPT has been great to work with and we are trying to stretch the limits of what is possible but the "Turbulence Dam" cast into the stock head that restricts flow to 170cfm on the intake side is just too much to overcome. I fully believe these turbos can get us to 550RWHP, if the head flow was there. As it stands, they are working super hard to shove the air past the dam and above 4000RPM the turbos are working too hard shoving against the flow limit and not putting up extra power to the rear wheels. I hope that makes sense. One or two more things to try and then I can say we have definitively tried everything! My own restriction is 93 octane (E10) pump gas, no meth/E85 mix. We are close (reminder, we are at 12 degrees of timing and 17lbs of boost to hit the 470rwhp). It is not a big stretch to imagine that we could bridge the gap with fueling and cross the 500rwhp number, that just wasn't my goal

Did you ever get his truck back on the dyno for final numbers?

 

[noodles]

Is this the turbulence dam you speak of?
View attachment 138409
Is this, or do we not know, something that could be easily removed - I guess that's really what is being discussed?

Doesn't Ford call it a swirl or Vortex generator? I'd say it's hampering the flow for sure.

 

[RMB_Ryan]

Jerry, as I was reading your post this thought again went through my mind. There has to be someone out there that is massaging these heads. I’ve seen some pretty pictures that Ryan posted but no actual numbers (perhaps I’ve just missed the thread). These guys in my mind are truly “Masters of the Black Arts” when it comes to finding horsepower that you didn’t know you had.

I’ve watched guys with flow benches over the years. I used to live by a guy that had a flowbench, he was a magician. He let me help on several sets of my own heads and on heads for a race team that I built engines. He’d point (actually used a Sharpie), I’d grind and and polish and low and behold it worked. He knew when to lift a port and when to leave it alone. This was a bit before and just as CNC porting was really defining it’s place in the world (telling my age here).

I realize that porting heads and running Turbo’s is a different reality than old N/A engines. That said, I don’t see much discussion on this issue regarding the 3.5 L heads. The pictures I’ve seen show serious intake valve shrouding and while that may be good for daily drivability, emmisions and mpg, it doesn’t do much for all out horsepower.

The Gen 1 heads have been around long enough now that it seems to me that someone whose fitting bigger turbos on these engines would have found a way to free up an airflow path to maximize this upgrade. I see quite a bit of discussion on bigger turbos and that’s great but a port will only flow a fixed volume of air at a given boost level. Pushing higher pressures only introduces problems many builders would just as soon not have to face. You see this kind of stuff, can you tell us anything.

We have discussed some of our information pertaining to the increase in port flow however discussing actual CFM numbers is not something myself or many shops like to share. The cfm numbers actually don’t tell you much other than the percentage increase at lift over what they were flowed at prior on the same flow bench. Always make sure you are having the heads flow benches at a standard 28” depression. This is where some shops get you and flow 28 on stock head, then port them and bang it up to a 32 or higher depression favoring false numbers.

We pick up 60-100% over stock with a pocket port alone without a valve job. For the full porting, custom valves, and all the small things many do it is 100% without question that cams are the next restriction. For myself before the EFR turbo setup I ran the GT turbos for a few weeks or months and the same bolt on setup I had on earlier stock motor.

we went from flowing in the 55 lb/min range to 7 lb a min over the 60 that the GT turbos are rated for. So 67 lb/min on 93 at 12 degrees and 18 psi. We are picking up 100% gains and the latest cams will hopefully get us from 87 lb/min on pump gas low boost on efrs to 100 lb/min with a bit more timing and 30 psi. Truck is in its street attire and we don’t plan to change that on this, however the future holds much less driveline loss since my truck is setup to increase driveline losses the more portentoal air we flow and higher wheel speed we take it. Hence 87 lb/min and 601 rwhp SAE corrected

Valve job is critical as is chamber design and piston selection. Also, at 60 lbs on the seat the stock springs cannot take much boost so spring kits will keep harmonics and valve train from failure. It is a must just as a forged bottom end is to prevent failures

Sorry- back to you Mr, Jerry

 

[GearHead_1]

Ryan, I get that people don’t want to give away trade secrets. Sadly, numbers (percentage improvement) at same conditions are all anyone looking to have heads ported has to go on when considering where they’d have their work done. Head porting is a pretty specialized deal, giving the numbers by themselves is not all that significant. It simply gives an idea of potential increase. It’s how you got those numbers that really counts (move a little bit here and a little more there) and even pictures don’t necessarily give that trade secret away.

 

[JerryTX]

Doesn't Ford call it a swirl or Vortex generator? I'd say it's hampering the flow for sure.

That's it yes, I'd like to refer to it hereafter as the damn dam.

 

[snakebitten]

That's why I love ya Jerry. Keeping it real.

 

[JerryTX]

Did you ever get his truck back on the dyno for final numbers?

Sorry we did not. I've driven Tom's truck a fair amount and after the initial hit where it is a little more sluggish than mine (he has 33+" tall tires and 3.55 gears, I have stock height tires and 3.73 gears) it is identical and frankly a little scary because the oversize wheels and tires and lift make me a little uneasy. No dyno but it feels almost exactly like mine. If we find an opportunity and the stars align and I can invite Tom to join us on a dyno we will get it done. But trust me after driving it and my own for 26K miles, it's making the numbers.

Jerry, as I was reading your post this thought again went through my mind. There has to be someone out there that is massaging these heads. I’ve seen some pretty pictures that Ryan posted but no actual numbers (perhaps I’ve just missed the thread). These guys in my mind are truly “Masters of the Black Arts” when it comes to finding horsepower that you didn’t know you had.

I’ve watched guys with flow benches over the years. I used to live by a guy that had a flowbench, he was a magician. He let me help on several sets of my own heads and on heads for a race team that I built engines. He’d point (actually used a Sharpie), I’d grind and and polish and low and behold it worked. He knew when to lift a port and when to leave it alone. This was a bit before and just as CNC porting was really defining it’s place in the world (telling my age here).

I realize that porting heads and running Turbo’s is a different reality than old N/A engines. That said, I don’t see much discussion on this issue regarding the 3.5 L heads. The pictures I’ve seen show serious intake valve shrouding and while that may be good for daily drivability, emissions and mpg, it doesn’t do much for all out horsepower.

The Gen 1 heads have been around long enough now that it seems to me that someone whose fitting bigger turbos on these engines would have found a way to free up an airflow path to maximize this upgrade. I see quite a bit of discussion on bigger turbos and that’s great but a port will only flow a fixed volume of air at a given boost level. Pushing higher pressures only introduces problems many builders would just as soon not have to face. You see this kind of stuff, can you tell us anything.

We have ported heads sitting on the shelf waiting to go on. There is no doubt that just removing the damn dam and pocket porting will be enough to show big gains on the current setup. Ryan's results show it and our own results seem ridiculous but its a fact: a simple pocket port (and removing the damn dam) results in 75% more intake airflow at .300 lift and 68% more at .400 lift (our max valve lift is .373). So I'm an all stock longblock putting down 470rwhp now. If I take my shiny new ported heads, spend 20 hours bolting them on, and they do exactly what I think they will do (about 550rwhp).. how long do you all think my stock pistons and rods will hold up? In other words, how many hours will the new heads last before shrapnel is chucked into them lol. I've had to have the guys at the shop talk me out of it because it would just be throwing money away. New RMB short block is ready, I was trying to make sure there was nothing left in the current setup (fuel pump, manifolds, intake, tuning) before pulling the engine from the shop truck and going for 26lbs of boost on GT Turbos and maxing them out.

Here's a screen shot from a porting video HeadGames (Ryan's shop of choice) released:

View attachment 138425

They offer two 'levels' of porting: a pocket port or a full port. You're looking at serious $$ to takes these heads "all the way". I'm talking full port, custom valves, high-RPM capable springs, the works. For me, it was all or nothing and I chose all. I'm not sure if it would be worth the time and expense to do a pocket port and not change anything else but I can't say for sure. The dollar-per-horsepower ratio is an unknown since so few people are doing head work and pretty much every person I've heard of that touches the heads goes all in.

Ryan's cylinder heads done all out are a thing of beauty for sure! Your engine will be putting up some great numbers as a result. I think for the stock location turbo guys, the full port job is overkill, but if you are going EFRs, heck yeah go all in. I hope to be one of the first out there with just pocket ported heads and upgraded valves and springs and on a forged shortblock, putting up maxed out GT Turbo numbers and running around with a grin from ear to ear every time I hit the go pedal

 

[Scott91370]

...So I'm an all stock longblock putting down 470rwhp now. If I take my shiny new ported heads, spend 20 hours bolting them on, and they do exactly what I think they will do (about 550rwhp).. how long do you all think my stock pistons and rods will hold up? In other words, how many hours will the new heads last before shrapnel is chucked into them lol.

This doesn't sound very promising! Well, the destruction part that is. Did Ford use parts that are actually weak enough for this to happen?

 

[JerryTX]

This doesn't sound very promising! Well, the destruction part that is. Did Ford use parts that are actually weak enough for this to happen?

I think Ford did really well with what we have from a strength perspective. Would I like the long block to support 800hp stock, sure. But it doesn't. It was designed to reliably produce 365 crank hp and I'm at 550 crank hp for 26k miles now. 550hp done properly (not ignoring restrictions and limitations) is safe IMO. I don't believe the stock internals will hold up 650 crank hp though, or at least I'm not willing to bet my wallet on it. If someone wants to bring me a truck, I'll invest to fuel the experiment, but I'm not all-in lol!

 

[snakebitten]

Come on Jerry, if not you, who? Lol

Your crew can mend it when you break it.

Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk

 

[RMB_Ryan]

Ryan, I get that people don’t want to give away trade secrets. Sadly, numbers (percentage improvement) at same conditions are all anyone looking to have heads ported has to go on when considering where they’d have their work done. Head porting is a pretty specialized deal, giving the numbers by themselves is not all that significant. It simply gives an idea of potential increase. It’s how you got those numbers that really counts (move a little bit here and a little more there) and even pictures don’t necessarily give that trade secret away.

It has nothing to do with me or what I share. I am open about most of what we do. I post a ton of content here on the forum and the things I don’t post 99.9% of people wont even know are part of a “secret sauce” so alto speak. I do respect the person and company who are our partners and do our cylinder head work. Their shop name alone is respected among the best cylinder head shops in the world. The records they continue to set, the level of unmatched development work constantly being pushed, and the the constant flow bench testing on heads which they still are perfecting after 20 years, are what makes something great. Two greats combined into one is like something along the lines of a super great or super duper great. You will be hard pressed to have a lot of shops willing to share flow data with anyone. It isn’t needed as I think you mentioned. I’ll take the 100% gain over stock flowing head all day and tomorrow.

Insert MEME here .............(can’t find one

 

[RMB_Ryan]

Sorry we did not. I've driven Tom's truck a fair amount and after the initial hit where it is a little more sluggish than mine (he has 33+" tall tires and 3.55 gears, I have stock height tires and 3.73 gears) it is identical and frankly a little scary because the oversize wheels and tires and lift make me a little uneasy. No dyno but it feels almost exactly like mine. If we find an opportunity and the stars align and I can invite Tom to join us on a dyno we will get it done. But trust me after driving it and my own for 26K miles, it's making the numbers.



We have ported heads sitting on the shelf waiting to go on. There is no doubt that just removing the damn dam and pocket porting will be enough to show big gains on the current setup. Ryan's results show it and our own results seem ridiculous but its a fact: a simple pocket port (and removing the damn dam) results in 75% more intake airflow at .300 lift and 68% more at .400 lift (our max valve lift is .373). So I'm an all stock longblock putting down 470rwhp now. If I take my shiny new ported heads, spend 20 hours bolting them on, and they do exactly what I think they will do (about 550rwhp).. how long do you all think my stock pistons and rods will hold up? In other words, how many hours will the new heads last before shrapnel is chucked into them lol. I've had to have the guys at the shop talk me out of it because it would just be throwing money away. New RMB short block is ready, I was trying to make sure there was nothing left in the current setup (fuel pump, manifolds, intake, tuning) before pulling the engine from the shop truck and going for 26lbs of boost on GT Turbos and maxing them out.



Ryan's cylinder heads done all out are a thing of beauty for sure! Your engine will be putting up some great numbers as a result. I think for the stock location turbo guys, the full port job is overkill, but if you are going EFRs, heck yeah go all in. I hope to be one of the first out there with just pocket ported heads and upgraded valves and springs and on a forged shortblock, putting up maxed out GT Turbo numbers and running around with a grin from ear to ear every time I hit the go pedal

Cannot wait for this!! I’m very excited to see the results and just what tweaks have to be made to push the turbos you have to the absolute max. I agree with every target hp number you have set and i pulled mine too fast so this is something I’m following closely

 

[JerryTX]

Come on Jerry, if not you, who? Lol

Your crew can mend it when you break it.

Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk

Yes they can but you've met them Bruce, I give them fodder like that.. I'm done!! They are professional hecklers I tell ya!

 

[Grim Reaper]

@JerryTX, I see you are "kissing" 500RWHP now with your setup and a 93 Octane tune. Unfortunately, not all of us can get 93 Octane.

Have you considered trying your engine on a lower octane tune? I suggest this for two reasons:

1) Obviously not all of us have 93 Octane, and only have 91 Octane at best. It would be interesting to see the difference so people who are "octane limited" can see what they can reasonably expect. If it is 450RWHP on 91 - many people may be more than happy with that.

2) What about tuning around 87 Octane? With the high price of fuel, many guys may like a built motor that can safely run 87 octane and still get 400-425RWHP.

In fact, the motor may run safer with a well tuned 87 Octane tune as it can be less stressful on the internals of the motor than a 500RWHP engine. Also, less demands on the HPFP.

I am sure there are a number of guys, especially with the high price of fuel, that would be very interested in a built engine making a safe 400-425RWHP on an 87 tune. They can still chose to run a higher octane grade of fuel for that safety factor OR they chose to ONLY run Tier 1 Fuel. BUT, if they are FORCED to run a "not-so-name-brand" fuel because they stuck in some back-road hick town in the boonies, they could compensate by buying Premium (that is probably only a good as a Tier One 87).

I am putting this out for you, as it seems all you would need to do, is get the engine re-tuned for 91 and 87.

I think you may find a whole new crowd of people are interested in what your truck will do when it runs 91 and 87. AND ... you may find that for 'normal day-to-day' driving, the 87 Octane tune is still a potent tune but MUCH cheaper run every day.

Finally, with ported heads, more boost and possible a few more mods, your engine may make 600RWHP on a 93 tune - but it will be a short, bright life unless it is built internally to handle the 600RWHP.

But, if you use those same parts but tuned for 87 Octane, you may have 450 or 500RWHP and an engine that can last due to less stress with a slightly de-tuned engine that can run 87 Octane.

Again, you may attract a new crowd of interested customers - who want to run 87 Octane but also want more RWHP - and willing to buy the parts they need. For many, the savings they will have on 87 Octane could help justify the cost of the parts.

PS: I posted this in your other post in the Performance Forum as not everyone comes to your Vendor Forum. But I think others (especially those who run 87 Octane) should see this.

 

[pacertom]

Hey everyone...I'm back. Truck is still incredible as ever and love driving it. I am a tournament bass fisherman and pull the boat with the upgrades and its honestly better than my old F250. But the fun is the daily driving. Jerry and his team did an amazing job on the truck and I have no regrets....

That said..... I have the truck up for sale. I contemplated getting a Class C or B motorhome to pull the boat and have my "base" versus the crappy motels but have decided on a Slide in Camper. I found the camper but have not found the truck yet. Been looking at 1 ton DRW and have driven a few...Actually found 2 that I would have bought that day but dealerships and their F&*()ing NADA stance will eventually drive me nuts. As most know, they won't give you credit for what the truck actually is, they are quoting trade offers that are basically the same as if I brought in a bone stock truck with bald tires, no exterior enhancements etc....Just the NADA number (and dealer number at that).

So.....If anyone knows someone that wants a turn-key truck that Jerry's team built, I have it in my driveway. I'll even throw in a "check up cost" at Jerry's shop for peace of mind.

I've posted on CL and Auto Trader with the usual scam or kid responses....I am ready to go. I have it listed for $29K, best dealer offer has been $23K. If someone comes along with $27, I'll let it go (I owe $29K still but will pay the difference).




Tom - 214-336-6489

 

[pacertom]

One more deal sweetener....I'll throw in this Kodiak Truck Tent made for this F150 !!! That was not cheap!

 

[D0ncH]

Hell of a deal

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